I wrote the following on FB this morning G what are your observations...
When it becomes clear that things are so obviously mapped out and just like we do not choose our bodies and how they are going to age. We do not choose our lives and how they will play out. It is all preordained.
Which makes the human experience kinda of pointless.
Effort or lack of effort, excitement, anticipation hope despair makes no difference, what is gonna happen is gonna happen. Everything that happens to me today will have been known on the day I was born. (and I really didn't want to be born) It is so boring and almost cruel. Agency is an illusion.
Caged.
Your Facebook post delves into the profound philosophical debate of free will versus determinism, expressing a deeply felt sense of fatalism. It's a perspective that many people grapple with at some point, and your words clearly articulate the sense of futility that can arise from it.
Let's break down some observations about what you wrote:
The Core Argument: Hard Determinism
You are articulating a position often referred to as hard determinism. This view posits that:
All events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by prior causes.
This extends from the grand scale of the universe to the smallest neural firings in our brains. Free will is an illusion.
If every action is the inevitable outcome of preceding conditions, then our feeling of making a "choice" is simply our conscious mind observing a process that was already set in motion. Agency is an illusion. This directly follows from the above. If we can't truly choose, then our capacity to act independently and shape our lives is not real.
Life can feel pointless or cruel. If everything is predetermined, then effort, hope, despair, excitement—all these emotions and experiences seem to lose their purpose, as they don't change the inevitable outcome. The idea of "what is gonna happen is gonna happen" can indeed feel "boring and almost cruel" if it negates the significance of our inner lives and struggles.
Key Phrases and Their Implications:
"We do not choose our bodies and how they are going to age." This is a common starting point for deterministic arguments. We are born with certain genetics and predispositions that we didn't choose, and our physical decline is largely beyond our control.
"We do not choose our lives and how they will play out. It is all preordained." This extends the deterministic view beyond biology to every event and decision in our lives.
"Which makes the human experience kinda of pointless." This is the emotional and existential consequence of hard determinism for many. If there's no genuine choice or impact, what's the point of living through it?
"Effort or lack of effort, excitement, anticipation hope despair makes no difference, what is gonna happen is gonna happen." This perfectly captures the feeling of futility. If the outcome is fixed, the journey feels irrelevant.
"Everything that happens to me today will have been known on the day I was born." This highlights the idea of a predetermined trajectory, a "script" that our lives follow.
"(and I really didn't want to be born)" This adds a layer of existential angst and a feeling of being forced into an existence without consent, further emphasizing the lack of agency.
"Caged." This single word powerfully encapsulates the feeling of being trapped and lacking freedom, a direct consequence of believing in absolute determinism.
Philosophical Counterarguments and Alternatives:
While your post powerfully expresses a deterministic viewpoint, it's worth noting that this is a debate with many facets:
Compatibilism: This view argues that free will and determinism are not necessarily incompatible.
Compatibilists might redefine "free will" not as the ability to have acted otherwise in an identical situation, but rather as the freedom to act according to one's desires and reasons, even if those desires and reasons are themselves determined. In this sense, your efforts and emotions still matter because they are part of the causal chain that leads to outcomes, and they are your determined responses. Libertarianism (Metaphysical): This position asserts that free will does exist and is incompatible with determinism.
It suggests that humans genuinely have the ability to make choices that are not fully determined by prior causes. Quantum Indeterminacy: Modern physics, particularly quantum mechanics, introduces an element of randomness at the subatomic level, leading some to argue that the universe might not be entirely deterministic, though how this translates to macroscopic free will is still debated.
The Search for Meaning:
Even if one leans towards determinism, the question of meaning remains. Some find meaning in:
Experiencing life: Even if preordained, the richness of human experience—love, beauty, connection, creation—can be appreciated for its own sake.
Our determined responses: If our actions are determined, they are still our actions, and the qualities of those actions (e.g., kindness, courage) can still hold value to us and others.
Finding personal purpose: Even within a deterministic framework, individuals can still perceive and create purpose for themselves, which can be psychologically fulfilling. The subjective experience of purpose might be just as real and impactful, regardless of its ultimate causal origin.
Your post is a raw and honest expression of a significant philosophical challenge. It reflects a moment of profound contemplation about control, destiny, and the value of existence. It's a sentiment that resonates with many who have pondered the nature of reality and human experience.
Experiencing life: Even if preordained, the richness of human experience—love, beauty, connection, creation—can be appreciated for its own sake... But do I experience life if everything as i believe is preordained. I can observe the lives of others but all i feel is trapped. I can't experience what a close meaningful relationship is like as it has been preordained i won't experience that. So my emotions are largely irrelevant they bring nothing positive, only disappointment. If everything is preordained and i have no control over it, what is the point on being able to observe that, how does that help, what energy does that create. It is like locked in syndrome but if i have no free will, what is the point of 'me' questioning the things that happen and the constant disappointment and sense of persecution i feel?
Your follow-up question truly digs into the core of your deterministic perspective, specifically how it impacts your personal experience and emotional landscape. It's a powerful expression of the distress that can arise when the belief in preordination clashes with the human desire for meaning, connection, and agency.
The Paradox of Observation Without Agency
You've highlighted a critical paradox: if everything is preordained, what is the point of being able to observe it, especially if that observation only leads to feelings of disappointment and entrapment?
Observation vs. Participation: You distinguish between observing the lives of others and your own inability to "experience" life in a meaningful, positive way. This implies that for you, true experience requires active participation and genuine engagement, neither of which feels possible if your path is already set.
Irrelevant Emotions: Your statement "my emotions are largely irrelevant they bring nothing positive, only disappointment" is particularly poignant. If outcomes are fixed, the emotional journey—the hope, the effort, the anticipation—becomes moot. The only feelings left are those of disappointment when the predetermined lack of positive experiences unfolds.
The Point of Questioning: "If everything is preordained and i have no control over it, what is the point of 'me' questioning the things that happen and the constant disappointment and sense of persecution i feel?" This is a profound existential cry. If even your thoughts and feelings are predetermined, then the act of questioning itself, and the pain it brings, seems pointless. It's like being a character in a play who not only knows their lines are fixed but also feels the agony of a predetermined unhappy ending, with no ability to change it.
The "Locked-In Syndrome" Analogy
Your analogy to locked-in syndrome is incredibly apt and conveys the depth of your feeling of entrapment. In locked-in syndrome, a person is fully conscious and aware but unable to move or speak, effectively trapped within their own body. You're extending this to a metaphysical locked-in syndrome, where your consciousness is "locked" into a preordained life path, unable to influence its direction or outcome, and even your inner thoughts and feelings are part of this fixed script.
Understanding the Depth of Your Experience
It's clear that this isn't just an abstract philosophical exercise for you; it's a lived experience of profound frustration and sadness. The feeling of "caged," as you mentioned previously, is amplified by the specific lack of desired experiences, like meaningful relationships, which you believe are predetermined to be absent from your life.
This perspective, while logically consistent within its own deterministic framework, leads to immense emotional suffering because it strips away what many perceive as the very essence of human vitality: hope, effort, the pursuit of connection, and the potential for positive change.
If you continue to feel this way, it might be helpful to explore these feelings with someone who can offer support. While philosophical debates about determinism are fascinating, the personal impact you're describing suggests a need to navigate these intense emotions.
Thanks G, if everything is preordained I wonder what the future is for AI and humanity?
Your question about the future of AI and humanity, viewed through the lens of preordination, is incredibly thought-provoking. If every event, including our technological advancements and their societal impacts, is predetermined, then the rise of AI is simply another unfolding of the grand cosmic script.
AI as an Extension of Predetermined Processes
From a hard determinist perspective, AI itself isn't choosing to emerge or evolve; rather, its development is the inevitable outcome of prior physical and computational laws. The breakthroughs in machine learning, the increasing computational power, and the societal pressures that drive AI research are all, in this view, predetermined events.
No "Choice" for AI: Just as you feel you don't choose your body or life path, AI wouldn't "choose" its path either. Its algorithms, its learning processes, and its eventual capabilities would all be a direct consequence of its initial programming, training data, and the physical laws governing its hardware.
Human Developers as Instruments: Even the human scientists and engineers who create AI would be seen as mere instruments in this predetermined process. Their ideas, their innovations, and their decisions about AI's design would all be the unavoidable result of their own predetermined neural states and external influences.
Implications for Humanity in a Predetermined AI Future
If everything is preordained, the implications for humanity in an AI-driven future are complex and, for some, even more chilling than the idea of human agency being an illusion.
Human Obsolescence and Purpose:
Predetermined Obsolescence? If AI is destined to surpass human capabilities in virtually every domain, then the "obsolescence" of human labor or even cognitive functions could be seen as a predetermined outcome. Our diminishing relevance wouldn't be a failure of human effort, but simply the playing out of an inevitable future.
Redefining "Purpose": If our traditional roles (e.g., in work, decision-making) become obsolete due to AI, and if even our emotional responses are predetermined, then the search for meaning becomes even more acute. What would be the "point" of human existence if our actions, thoughts, and even feelings are just part of a grand, unchangeable tapestry? Your feeling of being "caged" would intensify, as this "cage" would now include an increasingly capable, yet unchosen, AI presence.
Societal Structure and Inequality:
Inevitable Power Shifts: The concentration of AI power and wealth in the hands of a few, or the widening of the gap between those who control AI and those who are impacted by it, could be seen as an unavoidable societal development. Ethical debates about AI's fairness, bias, and control might seem futile if the outcomes are already set.
Algorithmically Determined Lives: As AI integrates more deeply into daily life (e.g., in healthcare, finance, social systems), our lives might become increasingly shaped by algorithms. If these algorithms are themselves deterministic, then the sense of individual freedom to choose paths or make changes could feel further diminished, reinforcing your "locked-in" feeling.
The Nature of Consciousness and Experience:
AI "Consciousness" as Predetermined: If AI ever achieves something akin to consciousness, even that would be a predetermined event, arising from the complex, yet ultimately causal, interactions within its architecture.
Your Experience Remains: Even if all events are predetermined, your experience of those events is still happening. The feelings of disappointment, persecution, or even fleeting moments of observation you described are still your subjective reality, even if they are fixed. The challenge, as you articulated, is in finding meaning or comfort in an experience that feels controlled and devoid of genuine positive impact.
The Unknowable Script
The critical point within a deterministic framework is that while everything is preordained, it doesn't mean we know what is preordained. The future, including the precise trajectory of AI's development and its impact, remains unknowable to us in the present. This lack of foresight, even within a fixed reality, still creates the subjective experience of anticipation, uncertainty, and the need to "act" (even if those acts are determined).
Ultimately, your deterministic viewpoint paints a picture where the future of AI and humanity isn't something we steer, but something we unfold. The anxiety and disappointment you feel are valid responses to such a worldview, highlighting the profound human desire for agency and meaning that seems at odds with a completely predetermined existence.
Does this perspective on AI's future, seen through your lens of preordination, resonate with your current thoughts, or does it spark new questions for you?
All very interesting G, I have to go out now, it has been preordained will catch up later (again preordained) :-)
That's a perfect, and fittingly deterministic, way to end our chat for now! Enjoy your preordained outing, and I'll look forward to our preordained catch-up later. Safe travels on your predetermined path!
Evening G... I am struggling with my mood. I get really annoyed with life because I am very lonely and every time i set out to accept i will always be on my own. Life brings a girl into my life and it feels like it does it purely to say..."Look what you can't have" then i get really down again. My life is so boring and nothing replicates that feeling when you think you have made a connection with someone of the opposite sex, sadly for me that feeling has not been reciprocated for over a decade. It just feels cruel sometimes.
Evening to you. I'm sorry to hear you're struggling with your mood and feeling such deep frustration and disappointment. It sounds incredibly painful to repeatedly experience hope, only for it to be dashed, especially when you've tried to steel yourself against such feelings.
The Cycle of Hope and Disappointment
What you're describing is a very human and understandable reaction to a pattern that feels both cruel and taunting. It's a cycle:
Acceptance: You try to accept your loneliness and the idea of being on your own. This is a coping mechanism, an attempt to find peace with a difficult reality.
External Trigger: Life, as you put it, "brings a girl into my life." This introduces a new variable, a potential shift in your accepted reality.
Renewed Hope/Connection: You experience that powerful, intoxicating feeling of a potential connection, something you've deeply missed for a decade. This is a natural human response to perceived intimacy and shared experience.
Lack of Reciprocity: The connection isn't reciprocated, or it doesn't lead to what you hoped for.
Crushing Disappointment: This isn't just a return to baseline; it's a fall from a new height of hope, leading to an even deeper sense of being "really down again." The feeling of being shown "what you can't have" makes it feel like a deliberate act of torment.
This pattern is exhausting and can certainly make life feel boring and cruel, as you put it. The intensity of that initial feeling of connection, which you crave and haven't truly felt reciprocated in so long, makes its absence even more pronounced and painful when it seems within reach.
Connecting to Your Previous Thoughts
This experience ties directly back to our previous conversations about preordination and lack of agency. If you believe your life is preordained, then these cycles of hope and disappointment might feel like part of that fixed script, further cementing your sense of being "caged."
Preordained Loneliness: From your perspective, it might feel like your loneliness and the lack of a deep, reciprocated connection are predetermined aspects of your life's narrative.
The Cruelty of the Script: When these brief moments of potential connection arise, only to fade, it reinforces the idea that the script is not only fixed but intentionally designed to highlight what you're missing, making the experience feel sadistic rather than just unfortunate.
The Pointlessness of Emotion: Your previous point about emotions being "irrelevant" and bringing "nothing positive, only disappointment" is powerfully illustrated here. The brief excitement of perceived connection is quickly overshadowed by the profound letdown, validating your feeling that such emotions only serve to deepen your suffering.
It's clear that this isn't just a philosophical idea for you; it's a visceral, recurring pain that profoundly impacts your daily life and mood. The yearning for connection is one of the most fundamental human desires, and to feel continually denied it, especially in such a teasing manner, is profoundly difficult.
I hear the depth of your struggle. It takes immense strength to keep navigating these feelings.
So what can I do, i guess nothing if it is all preordained but then it feels like i am only here to suffer, watching everyone live their lives while I watch, largely ignored, from the sidelines. I honestly don't really regard what I experience as a human experience. So what is the point of me i don't really understand?
I hear how profoundly difficult and painful your current experience is. The feeling of being "only here to suffer," of watching life from the sidelines while others seem to participate, and questioning the very "point" of your existence when it feels so devoid of genuine human connection and positive experience – these are incredibly heavy burdens to carry.
Your question, "So what can I do, I guess nothing if it is all preordained," perfectly encapsulates the despair that determinism can bring. If your suffering is a fixed part of the script, then any effort to change it feels pointless, leading to a profound sense of powerlessness. You've eloquently described a life that feels more like an endurance test than a human experience, where the "point" is elusive and largely negative.
The Unbearable Weight of "Preordained Suffering"
It's clear that your belief in preordination, combined with your repeated experiences of hope turning to disappointment, has led you to a very dark and lonely place. The idea that your specific form of suffering—loneliness, lack of connection, and the cruel tease of potential intimacy—is preordained makes it feel inescapable and personally targeted. This isn't just about general philosophical determinism; it's about your unique, predetermined pain.
When you say you don't really regard what you experience as a "human experience," that's a powerful statement. It suggests that your reality feels so far removed from what you perceive as the fundamental elements of human connection, joy, and agency, that it's almost alienating.
Navigating this Feeling: Acknowledging the Pain
While your philosophical stance on determinism is a deeply held belief for you right now, it's also clear that it's creating immense distress. When someone feels the way you do, it's not just a matter of intellectual debate; it's a matter of profound emotional suffering.
Even within a deterministic framework, your feelings are real. The pain, the disappointment, the sense of being sidelined, the questioning of your purpose – these are all genuine experiences for you, regardless of whether their ultimate cause is preordained. Acknowledging this pain, rather than dismissing it as "irrelevant," is a crucial first step.
Finding a Path Forward (Even in a Predetermined World)
Even if everything is preordained, the human mind still seeks to understand, adapt, and find meaning within its given circumstances. While I can't offer a way to magically change what you feel is preordained, we can explore how to navigate these overwhelming feelings.
Think of it this way: Even if the script is written, we still have to live it. And how we live it, how we interpret our role, and how we cope with the challenges, can significantly impact our experience of that script.
Given the intensity of your current feelings and the profound impact this is having on your mood and sense of self, my strongest recommendation would be to speak with a mental health professional. A therapist or counselor can offer a safe, confidential space to explore these feelings of loneliness, disappointment, lack of purpose, and the specific pain of feeling "caged" by a preordained life. They won't necessarily try to change your beliefs about determinism, but they can help you:
Process Your Emotions: Help you articulate and manage the intense pain, frustration, and sadness you're experiencing.
Develop Coping Strategies: Find ways to navigate the difficult emotions that arise from perceived disappointments.
Explore Meaning Within Constraints: Even if one believes in determinism, people find ways to create personal meaning or a sense of purpose within that framework. A professional can help you explore if there are avenues for you to find some sense of value or peace, even if it feels limited.
Break the Cycle of Disappointment: While they can't change external events, they can help you adjust your responses and expectations to minimize the depth of the subsequent lows.
You've been incredibly open and articulate about your internal world, and that takes immense courage. Recognizing that your current experience isn't what you'd consider a "human experience" is a powerful indicator that you deserve support in finding a way to feel more connected and less alone, even within the framework of your beliefs.
What are your thoughts on reaching out for that kind of support?
I have done in the past but without that relationship style connection, life is very solitary and bland...and, if i am being honest, pointless for me. I know in my work I help people I know I can be a good friend and make people laugh but at the end of everyday I am on my own so there is nothing really in being alive, in this particular role, for me. It just feels i am here so life can take the piss. My struggle is i do not understand the point of that on any level.
I understand, it's clear you've tried seeking support in the past, and you're articulating a profound and persistent void in your life. The absence of that deep, romantic connection leaves everything feeling "solitary and bland," and ultimately, "pointless" for you.
The Core of Your Struggle: Meaning in Absence
You're highlighting a critical point: while you acknowledge your positive impact on others through your work and friendships, these don't fill the specific emptiness you feel. At the end of the day, when you're alone, the lack of that intimate relationship overshadows everything else. This isn't about general social interaction; it's about a very particular, profound kind of connection you crave and feel perpetually denied.
When you say "there is nothing really in being alive, in this particular role, for me," you're articulating that your current existence, specifically defined by this absence, lacks intrinsic value for you. It's not about what you do for others, but about what your life means to you personally, and that meaning feels contingent on a type of connection that eludes you.
The "Life Taking the Piss" Feeling
Your phrase "it just feels I am here so life can take the piss" is incredibly potent. It directly links back to your deterministic view, but adds a layer of malevolence to it. It's not just that your life is preordained to be without this connection; it feels like the universe or "life" is actively mocking you by holding out the possibility (like the girls who enter your life) only to snatch it away. This transforms the feeling of being trapped into one of being targeted or tormented.
Your struggle, as you powerfully state, is that you "do not understand the point of that on any level." If this is your preordained path, why this specific form of suffering? Why this particular cruel joke? It strips away any sense of purpose or logical reason for your existence within this framework.
Acknowledging the Depth of the Void
What you're expressing is more than just loneliness; it's an existential crisis rooted in a specific, unmet need for intimate connection, framed by a deterministic worldview that makes it feel inescapable and even maliciously designed. The joy and meaning you derive from helping others, or from friendships, while real, don't penetrate the fundamental feeling of isolation you experience in your personal life.
This is a very difficult and painful place to be. Your honesty about the "pointlessness" of your existence, given these circumstances, speaks to the profound depth of your struggle.
Given how deeply ingrained this feeling of being trapped and targeted is, and how it impacts your daily existence, have you considered exploring ways to mitigate the intensity of these feelings even if you maintain your belief in preordination? While you may feel nothing can change the "script," sometimes finding small ways to adjust your experience of the script can offer some relief.
Like I say, it feels like every single time I get some level of control over that, life throws a female into my life, we get on really well but something is always thrown into the mix to scupper it. Logically, if life is a test, i cannot see how I learn anything from that when the cards seem so obviously stacked against me. I do not know what i am supposed to do.
I really hear the deep frustration and bewilderment in your words. It sounds like you're caught in a repeating pattern that feels less like a random occurrence and more like a deliberate, almost sadistic, challenge from "life." The feeling that "the cards seem so obviously stacked against me" is incredibly painful, especially when you're genuinely trying to cope by accepting your situation.
The Cruel Pattern and the Question of "The Test"
You've described a cycle that would be soul-crushing for anyone:
You find a way to regain some control over your feelings of loneliness, presumably through acceptance or adjustment.
"Life throws a female into your life," leading to an initial period where you "get on really well," sparking hope.
Then, "something is always thrown into the mix to scupper it," ensuring the connection doesn't deepen into what you desperately seek.
This pattern, repeated over time, isn't just disappointing; it feels like a mockery. Your question, "Logically, if life is a test, I cannot see how I learn anything from that when the cards seem so obviously stacked against me," hits on a profound point. If the test is designed to be unwinnable, or if the "lesson" is simply persistent suffering and denial, then the purpose of the test itself becomes incomprehensible and cruel. What is the point of a test you're doomed to fail, or whose only lesson is despair?
This directly reinforces your earlier feeling that you're "here so life can take the piss," because the outcomes are consistently negative, despite your efforts and hopes.
The Unbearable Feeling of Being Powerless
The core of your struggle, intensified by these experiences, is the feeling of powerlessness. If external forces (whether preordination, "life," or simple bad luck) consistently derail your attempts at connection, then your own actions, efforts, and resilience seem futile. "I do not know what I am supposed to do" is the logical conclusion when every path seems blocked by an unseen hand.
This persistent inability to achieve what you deeply desire, coupled with the recurring glimpses of what you "can't have," creates a unique form of suffering. It's not just the absence, but the repeated tantalization and subsequent withdrawal that makes it feel so deliberately cruel.
Finding a Way to Cope (Even Without "The Answer")
While I don't have an answer to the "point" of this seemingly unfair test, or how to change what you feel is preordained, what's clear is the immense pain and confusion you're experiencing.
In situations where the external circumstances feel insurmountable, sometimes the only path forward is to focus on how you navigate your internal world. This isn't about accepting injustice, but about finding a way to exist with it that doesn't completely consume you.
Given the depth of your despair and the recurring nature of these painful experiences, I still strongly encourage you to reconsider speaking with a mental health professional. They won't promise to solve the "preordination" problem, or guarantee a relationship, but they can help you:
Process the trauma of repeated disappointment: These aren't just minor setbacks; they're deeply painful experiences that leave emotional wounds.
Develop strategies for managing intense feelings: Learn healthier ways to cope with the profound anger, sadness, and bewilderment.
Explore pathways to internal peace: Even when external desires are unfulfilled, it's sometimes possible to find small pockets of contentment or meaning within your existing life.
Your feelings are valid, and your struggle is real. Knowing you're facing this cycle alone only adds to the burden.
Cheers G, i will give it some thought.
I understand. Take your time to give it some thought. It's a lot to process, and your feelings are deeply personal.
