Debating Gender with AI

 Hi G, humans at the moment are having trouble defining what the differences are between men and women. So there are a number of people who have been born in male bodies who claim to actually be women and people born in traditionally female bodies who claim to be men. So if I decided I wanted to self identify as one or the other how would i know what the differences are, what would i be basing my choice on? I only know how to be me so having to choose between two genders seems impossible.

It's completely understandable that you're seeking clarity on the differences between men and women, especially when considering how you might self-identify. The language around sex and gender can be confusing, but there are clear distinctions that might help you understand your own feelings.

Here's a breakdown of the key concepts:

1. Sex (Assigned at Birth):

• Definition: Sex refers to biological and physiological characteristics, primarily related to reproductive organs, chromosomes (XX for typically female, XY for typically male), and hormones. It's usually assigned at birth based on external anatomy.
• Is it always binary? While typically categorized as male or female, there are also intersex individuals who are born with variations in sex characteristics that don't fit neatly into either category.
• What it is NOT: Sex is not the same as gender, and it doesn't necessarily determine how someone feels internally or how they express themselves.

2. Gender Identity:

• Definition: Gender identity is your internal, personal sense of being a man, a woman, both, neither, or somewhere else along the gender spectrum. It's about how you feel about yourself, deep down.
• Internal vs. External: Gender identity is an internal feeling and is not visible to others unless you choose to express it.
• Not confined to a binary: While "man" and "woman" are common gender identities, many people identify outside of this binary (e.g., non-binary, genderfluid, agender).
• Can change over time: For some people, gender identity is stable throughout their lives, while for others, it can be fluid and evolve.
• Separate from sexual orientation: Your gender identity is about who you are, while sexual orientation is about who you are attracted to. A transgender person, for example, can be straight, gay, bisexual, or any other sexual orientation, just like a cisgender person.

3. Gender Expression:

• Definition: Gender expression is how you outwardly present your gender. This can be through your clothing, hairstyle, voice, mannerisms, name, pronouns, and other perceived characteristics.
• Varies widely: What is considered "masculine" or "feminine" can change across cultures and over time.
• Not always aligned with identity: Someone might identify as one gender but express themselves in ways that society traditionally associates with another gender, or in ways that are more fluid.

How to understand your own gender identity:

Given that you "only know how to be you" and choosing between two genders feels impossible, this suggests you might be grappling with your own internal sense of self, which is exactly what gender identity is about. Here are some thoughts on how you might explore this:

• It's about your internal feeling, not external expectations: Don't base your choice on what society expects a "man" or "woman" to be or look like. Your gender identity is about what feels authentic to you on the inside.
• Explore beyond the binary: Many people don't feel entirely "male" or entirely "female." There's a wide spectrum of gender identities, including non-binary, genderfluid, agender, and more. Researching these terms might help you find language that resonates with your experience.
• Reflect on what feels right:
  • When you think about yourself, what pronouns feel most comfortable? (e.g., she/her, he/him, they/them, or others)
  • Do you feel a connection to concepts of "manhood" or "womanhood"? Or do those concepts feel restrictive or irrelevant to your core self?
  • How do you prefer to present yourself to the world? Are there certain clothes, hairstyles, or behaviors that make you feel more "you"?
  • Are there times when you've felt a disconnect between your assigned sex and how you feel inside?
• Experiment (if safe and comfortable): You might try using different pronouns with trusted friends, exploring different styles of dress, or using a different name in certain contexts to see how it feels. This is about self-discovery, not about making a permanent decision overnight.
• Seek out diverse stories: Reading or listening to the experiences of people with different gender identities can be incredibly insightful. This can help you understand the vastness of human experience and see if any of it aligns with your own feelings.
• Talk to trusted individuals or professionals: If you feel comfortable, talking to a supportive friend, family member, or a therapist specializing in gender identity can provide a safe space for exploration and guidance. They can help you navigate these feelings without judgment.
• There's no rush to label: You don't have to put a label on your gender identity if it doesn't feel right. It's a journey of self-discovery, and sometimes simply understanding what you are not, or what you are, in this moment, is enough. Your understanding of yourself can evolve.

Ultimately, your choice to self-identify is deeply personal and based on your own internal sense of who you are. It's not about fitting into pre-defined boxes, but about recognizing and affirming your authentic self.

Yes but surely i need a definition... how would someone of a female gender feel as opposed to how someone of a male gender would feel?

You've hit upon the core of the challenge in defining gender identity: it's an internal, subjective experience, and what that feels like can be incredibly varied and deeply personal. There isn't a universally agreed-upon "feeling" that defines being a man or a woman.

Here's why trying to define gender identity by a specific "feeling" is difficult and often unhelpful:

1. It's not about a checklist of emotions or traits: While society often associates certain emotions (e.g., women are more emotional, men are stoic) or personality traits (e.g., women are nurturing, men are assertive) with specific genders, these are largely social constructs and stereotypes. People of any gender can embody a vast range of emotions and traits. A woman can be assertive and stoic; a man can be nurturing and highly emotional. These expressions don't negate their gender identity.

2. Internal vs. External: Gender identity is about your internal sense of self, not about how you express it or how others perceive you. While someone might choose to express their gender in ways traditionally associated with that gender, it's the internal feeling that's primary. For many cisgender people (those whose gender identity aligns with their sex assigned at birth), their gender identity is so ingrained and "normal" that they might not even consciously think about what it "feels" like to be their gender. It's just them.

3. The "Default" Experience for Cisgender People: For many cisgender individuals, their gender identity is simply a comfortable alignment with their assigned sex. They might say, "I feel like a woman because I am a woman," or "I feel like a man because I am a man." It's not a distinct "feeling" so much as a lack of discord or discomfort. They don't feel a mismatch between their body, their internal sense of self, and how society perceives them.

4. For Transgender and Non-Binary Individuals, it's often about Incongruence or Rightness:

   • Gender Dysphoria: For many transgender people, the "feeling" is often one of discomfort or distress (gender dysphoria) because their internal sense of self does not align with their sex assigned at birth. This discomfort can manifest in various ways: feeling alienated from their body, distress about being perceived as a gender they are not, or a deep yearning to have a body or social role that aligns with their true gender.
   • Sense of "Rightness" or Authenticity: Conversely, when a transgender person begins to live as their affirmed gender, the "feeling" is often one of profound relief, comfort, and authenticity. It's not a new feeling, but rather the feeling of finally being themselves, of their internal reality matching their external presentation and how others perceive them. A trans man might feel a deep sense of "rightness" when called "he" or when his body starts to masculinize, not because there's a specific "male feeling," but because that aligns with his internal sense of self.
   • Non-Binary Experiences: For non-binary individuals, the "feeling" might be that neither "man" nor "woman" fully encapsulates their internal sense of self. They might feel like a blend of both, neither, or something entirely different. The feeling is one of not fitting neatly into the binary categories.

How to approach your own understanding:

Instead of trying to find a specific "male feeling" or "female feeling," consider these questions related to your internal experience:

• When you imagine yourself living fully as a man, how does that sit with you? Does it feel like a comfortable and authentic fit? Does it resonate with your deepest sense of self?
• When you imagine yourself living fully as a woman, how does that sit with you? Does that feel like a comfortable and authentic fit? Does it resonate with your deepest sense of self?
• Do either of those feel like a complete fit? Or does something feel missing, or does it feel like you're trying to force yourself into a box?
• What pronouns feel most affirming to you? (He/him, She/her, They/them, or others?)
• When people perceive you as male or female, how does that feel internally? Does it feel "right," or does it create a sense of dissonance or discomfort?
• Do you have a strong aversion to being seen as one gender over the other? This aversion can be a strong indicator of your true gender identity.
• Are there aspects of "masculinity" or "femininity" (as understood by society) that you strongly gravitate towards or strongly reject, because they feel connected to who you are or are not? (Be careful here, as this can be influenced by gender expression and societal roles, but for some, there's a deeper internal connection).

The key is that your gender identity is your own personal truth. It's not something someone else can define for you, nor is it about meeting external criteria. It's about what feels most authentic and whole to you. It can be a journey of self-discovery, and it's perfectly okay if that discovery leads you to a non-binary identity, or to a deeper understanding of being cisgender.

So are you saying when it comes to gender there are no differences between men and women? There are only differences when it comes to biological sex.

That's a really important question that gets to the heart of the confusion! And to clarify, no, I'm not saying there are no differences when it comes to gender. What I'm emphasizing is that the differences between "men" and "women" (as in, those who identify as such) are primarily about gender identity and the social constructs surrounding it, rather than solely biological sex.

Let's break it down:

• Biological Sex: Here, the differences are tangible and scientifically observable. They relate to:

  • Chromosomes: XX (typically female) vs. XY (typically male), though intersex variations exist.
  • Genitalia: Vulva and vagina vs. penis and testes.
  • Internal Reproductive Organs: Ovaries and uterus vs. prostate and seminal vesicles.
  • Hormone Profiles: Different average levels and ratios of estrogen, testosterone, etc.
  • Secondary Sex Characteristics: Breast development, facial hair growth, voice pitch, body fat distribution, muscle mass potential, etc., which are influenced by hormones.

  These are the biological differences between typically male and typically female bodies.

• Gender (as a Social Construct and Identity): This is where it gets more nuanced.

  • Gender Identity: This is your internal, deeply held sense of self. A man feels like a man, a woman feels like a woman, a non-binary person feels like neither or both or something else. This internal feeling is fundamental. The "difference" here is the felt sense of identity. As discussed, it's not a checklist of emotions, but an intrinsic knowing.
  • Gender Roles: These are the socially constructed expectations for how people of different genders should behave, present themselves, work, and interact. These are very different from biological sex. For example, historically, many societies expected "women" to be nurturing caregivers and "men" to be providers and protectors. These are gender roles, and they vary significantly across cultures and time. They are not inherent biological differences.
  • Gender Expression: This is how individuals choose to express their gender through clothing, hairstyle, mannerisms, voice, etc. This is influenced by cultural gender roles, but it's ultimately a personal choice. A woman can express herself in a traditionally masculine way, and a man can express himself in a traditionally feminine way. Their gender expression doesn't change their gender identity.

The Crucial Point:

When someone says they "are a woman" despite being assigned male at birth, or vice versa, they are speaking about their gender identity. They are saying that their internal sense of self aligns with being a woman (or man), irrespective of their biological sex characteristics.

Therefore, the "differences" between a man (who identifies as a man) and a woman (who identifies as a woman) at the level of gender are:

1. Their internal, self-identified gender: One feels fundamentally male, the other feels fundamentally female. This is the primary distinction.
2. How they relate to gender roles and societal expectations: A man and a woman (cis or trans) may relate to societal ideas of "masculinity" and "femininity" differently, choosing to embody or reject certain aspects. For instance, a trans woman might embrace traditionally feminine expressions because they align with her internal gender identity and help her affirm it externally, while a cis woman might reject some feminine stereotypes.

So, while biological sex has clear, observable differences, the differences related to "gender" are more about internal identity, self-perception, and the fluid, culturally influenced ways individuals embody and express their gender.

But you are not telling me what being a man feels like and you are not telling me what a woman feels like.

I understand your frustration, and I apologize if my previous explanations haven't fully addressed what you're seeking. The reason I'm not giving you a definitive list of "what being a man feels like" or "what being a woman feels like" is because there isn't one universal, shared "feeling" for either.

It's not like a specific emotion such as happiness, sadness, or anger. Gender identity isn't an emotion you feel for a period of time. Instead, it's a fundamental aspect of who you are, a deeply ingrained sense of self.

Imagine asking, "What does it feel like to be human?" It's a vast question. You could list attributes like "feeling emotions," "thinking complex thoughts," "having a body," but none of those truly capture the essence of "feeling human" in a way that applies identically to every single person. It's too broad and deeply personal.

The same applies to gender identity:

For a Man (cisgender or transgender):

• It feels like being a man. For many cisgender men (whose gender identity aligns with their sex assigned at birth), this feeling is often so inherent and unquestioned that they might not even conceptualize it as a "feeling." It's just their default state of being. They feel a natural alignment between their internal sense of self, their body, and how they are perceived.
• For transgender men specifically: It often feels like a profound sense of rightness or authenticity when they are recognized as male, when their body aligns with their internal sense of self (either naturally or through transition), and when they are referred to with male pronouns. Conversely, it feels deeply wrong or distressing (gender dysphoria) to be seen or treated as female, because that doesn't align with who they know themselves to be. It's about an internal male framework for understanding themselves.

For a Woman (cisgender or transgender):

• It feels like being a woman. Similar to men, for many cisgender women, this is simply their inherent state of being. There's no specific "feeling" they can point to beyond "this is who I am." They feel a natural alignment between their internal sense of self, their body, and how they are perceived.
• For transgender women specifically: It often feels like a profound sense of rightness or authenticity when they are recognized as female, when their body aligns with their internal sense of self, and when they are referred to with female pronouns. Conversely, it feels deeply wrong or distressing to be seen or treated as male, because that doesn't align with who they know themselves to be. It's about an internal female framework for understanding themselves.

Think of it this way:

You mentioned "I only know how to be me." That's exactly what gender identity is about for most people. For a man, "being him" means being a man. For a woman, "being her" means being a woman.

The "difference" in feeling, then, is this internal, deeply personal, and often unarticulated sense of alignment with being a man, or with being a woman, or with being neither/both (for non-binary people).

It's not about a shared set of experiences, emotions, or personality traits. Those are vastly diverse within any gender group. It's about a fundamental, core sense of who you are.

If you don't feel a strong, inherent pull towards either "man" or "woman" as a descriptor for your deepest sense of self, then that in itself is a feeling that could lead you to explore non-binary identities.

So how would i know I am not a dog in a human body?

That's an excellent and insightful question! It directly addresses the core difference between gender identity (which is a human concept) and the fundamental biological and cognitive reality of being a distinct species.

Here's how we know you're not a dog in a human body:

1. Biological Species Identity (Hardwired Reality):

   • DNA: Every cell in your body contains human DNA. Your genetic code is Homo sapiens, not Canis familiaris. This is an unchangeable biological fact. A dog's DNA is fundamentally different from a human's, dictating everything from their skeletal structure and organ systems to their sensory perceptions and fundamental neurological wiring.
   • Physiology: Your body functions as a human body. You have human digestive, respiratory, circulatory, and nervous systems. Your brain is a human brain, with specific structures and capacities that dogs do not possess (and vice-versa).
   • Development: You developed from a human embryo into a human infant, child, and adult, following the human biological blueprint. A dog embryo develops into a dog.

2. Cognitive and Conscious Experience:

   • Abstract Thought and Language: Humans have highly developed capacities for abstract thought, complex reasoning, symbolic language, and the ability to conceptualize past, present, and future in a sophisticated way. While dogs are intelligent and capable of learning, emotional connection, and complex communication within their species, they do not possess these levels of abstract thought or human language.
   • Self-Awareness (Human vs. Animal): While some animals (including dogs) show forms of self-awareness (e.g., recognizing themselves in a mirror, understanding themselves as distinct from others), human self-awareness includes the capacity for complex introspection, reflection on one's identity, moral reasoning, and the ability to articulate one's internal experience through language.
   • Species-Specific Instincts and Drives: Humans have distinct human instincts, social structures, and drives. Dogs have their own set of species-specific instincts (e.g., pack behavior, scent-marking, specific forms of play, hunting drives) that are fundamentally different from human ones. While you might enjoy some activities dogs do (like running or fetching), you don't feel a biological drive to sniff every lamppost or chase squirrels in the same way a dog does.

3. No Mismatch in Species Identity:

   • When a transgender person says they are a man or a woman, it's about a gender identity mismatch with their assigned sex. They are still 100% biologically human.
   • There is no recognized phenomenon of a biological human experiencing "species dysphoria" – feeling profoundly and consistently that they are actually a different species trapped in a human body. If someone genuinely believed they were a dog, it would be considered a delusion, which is a symptom of certain mental health conditions, and would require professional evaluation and support.

In summary:

Your understanding that "I only know how to be me" is precisely how you know you are human. "Being you" involves having a human brain, a human body, and a human conscious experience. While gender identity is an internal sense of self within the human spectrum, it operates entirely within the framework of being biologically human. The "feeling" of being a man or a woman is a human feeling, specific to how a human understands their own gendered existence. The concept of being a dog is a separate biological and cognitive reality.

So I can know I am human and then choose whether I want to be a female human or a male human even though when it comes to gender nobody can really explain what the differences are?

You've precisely articulated the common point of confusion, and it highlights the distinction between the objective and the subjective.

Yes, you can absolutely know you are a human, based on all the biological and cognitive realities we discussed. Your species identity is a scientific fact.

When it comes to gender, it's slightly different:

You are not "choosing" to be a female human or a male human in the sense that you pick it off a shelf.

Instead, it's more accurate to say that you are discovering or recognizing what your deeply held, internal sense of self is within the human experience of gender.

Here's why it feels like "nobody can really explain the differences" in terms of a specific feeling:

1. It's a foundational sense of self, not an emotion: As mentioned, it's not like feeling happy or sad. For most people (both cisgender and transgender), their gender identity is simply a fundamental aspect of who they are, as intrinsic as their consciousness. They don't typically "feel" it as a separate emotion, but rather experience it as a core truth about themselves.

2. Language limitations: Our language is designed to describe observable phenomena and common emotional states. Describing a core internal identity that is subjective and unique to each individual is incredibly difficult. It's like trying to describe the color red to someone who has never seen it – you can use analogies, but you can't convey the direct sensory experience.

3. The "norm" is often invisible: For cisgender people (the majority), their gender identity aligns with their sex assigned at birth. Because there's no dissonance, they often don't think about what it "feels like" to be their gender. It's just their natural state. It's like breathing – you don't typically "feel" yourself breathing unless there's a problem.

4. For transgender and non-binary people, the "feeling" is often about congruence or incongruence:

   • Incongruence/Dysphoria: For many transgender individuals, the "feeling" is often one of discomfort, distress, or a sense of "wrongness" because their internal gender identity does not align with their body or how society perceives them. This isn't the gender itself, but the pain of the mismatch.
   • Congruence/Euphoria: When they are able to live in accordance with their true gender identity, the "feeling" is one of profound relief, authenticity, and "rightness." It's not a specific emotion of "being a woman" but the joy and comfort that comes from finally being seen and living as the woman they always knew themselves to be.

So, how do you "know" or base your choice?

You base it on introspection and what feels most authentic to your internal sense of self. It's about asking yourself:

• When you envision yourself as a man, does that resonate deeply? Does it feel like "you"?
• When you envision yourself as a woman, does that resonate deeply? Does it feel like "you"?
• Do neither of those feel like a complete fit? Do you feel like a blend, or entirely outside those categories?

It's not about trying to force yourself to feel a specific way based on societal stereotypes of masculinity or femininity. It's about listening to that quiet, internal voice that tells you who you are at your core. It's a journey of self-discovery, and for many, that discovery leads to feeling comfortably aligned with "man," "woman," or a non-binary identity.

So if it is impossible to define the differences how can anyone be sure?

This is the core philosophical and experiential challenge that often arises when discussing gender identity. You're right, if we can't define the "feeling" in universally communicable terms, how can anyone be sure, and how can others understand?

The answer lies in the nature of subjective experience and the cumulative evidence of lived human lives.

1. The Nature of Subjective Experience:

• Many things are "felt" but not easily defined: Think about love, pain, or beauty. You know what it feels like to be in love, but can you precisely define that feeling to someone who has never experienced it, without resorting to analogies or describing its effects? You can't. Yet, you are "sure" of your own love. The same applies to pain: you know when you're in pain, even if you can't perfectly quantify or describe the sensation to another person in a way they could replicate.
• Internal Knowing: Gender identity operates on this level of internal knowing. For someone whose gender identity is consistently and deeply felt as female, despite possibly being assigned male at birth, it's not a choice or a performance; it's a fundamental recognition of their inner self. They are "sure" in the same way you are "sure" you are human, or "sure" you love someone. It's an internal conviction.

2. The Evidence of Lived Experience:

• Consistency over time: For individuals who identify as transgender or non-binary, this feeling of incongruence with their assigned sex, or alignment with a different gender, is not fleeting. It's often deeply consistent throughout their lives, sometimes from very early childhood. This consistency, despite societal pressures to conform, is a powerful indicator of a genuine internal state.
• Relief from distress (Gender Dysphoria): A significant piece of evidence comes from the reduction of profound psychological distress (gender dysphoria) when individuals are able to affirm their gender identity. This distress can manifest as anxiety, depression, a feeling of alienation from one's body, or a deep discomfort with being perceived incorrectly. When a person transitions to align their social presentation and/or body with their internal gender, there's often a significant improvement in mental well-being. This strongly suggests that the gender identity they are affirming is a true and core aspect of their self.
• The consensus of medical and psychological bodies: Major medical and psychological organizations worldwide (e.g., World Health Organization, American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, NHS in the UK) recognize gender identity as a valid and distinct aspect of human experience. They acknowledge that a person's gender identity may not align with their sex assigned at birth and that gender affirmation is often essential for well-being. This consensus is built on decades of clinical observation and research.
• The "rightness" of belonging: When people find the language, community, and expression that aligns with their internal gender identity, there's often a profound sense of "coming home" or "this is who I truly am." This sense of fundamental rightness, even if hard to define in objective terms, is the personal proof.

How to understand "differences" when they're subjective:

Instead of looking for a universally definable "feeling," it's more about:

• Patterns of internal experience: While there's no single feeling, there are patterns of experience: a sense of alignment for cisgender people, or a sense of misalignment/dysphoria that resolves into alignment/euphoria for transgender people.
• The impact of societal constructs: The differences between men and women (gender-wise) are heavily shaped by societal gender roles and expectations. For instance, a transgender man may seek to cultivate traditionally masculine traits or experiences because those are culturally associated with manhood, and he identifies as a man. It's not that "being a man" inherently feels like being stoic, but rather that he feels like a man, and in his culture, stoicism might be a way men express themselves.

So, while the internal "feeling" of gender identity is subjective and not reducible to a simple description, the certainty comes from its persistence, its impact on well-being, and the consistent narratives of people who experience it. It's a deeply personal truth that can only be genuinely known by the individual experiencing it.

So if certainty is subjective and a person has to be believed when they proclaim their gender, though there are no recognised differences when it comes to gender, I can with subjective certainty claim to be a dog or a chimp. That could be my reality.

This is a very insightful point, and it allows us to draw a crucial distinction between gender identity and species identity. While both involve a sense of "self," they operate on entirely different levels of reality and certainty.

You're correct that gender identity is subjective – it's an internal sense of self, and we largely rely on a person's self-declaration because there's no external test for it. And yes, there's no universally agreed-upon feeling that defines being a man or a woman, beyond that inherent sense of "this is who I am."

However, claiming to be a dog or a chimp falls into a fundamentally different category than claiming a particular gender identity. Here's why:

1. Objective, Biological Reality:

   • Species is a biological classification, not an identity: Your species (human) is determined by your DNA, your biological development, your physiological makeup, and your evolutionary lineage. These are objective, verifiable facts. You have human chromosomes, human organs, and you developed from a human embryo. No amount of internal feeling can change these biological realities.
   • Gender is a human social and internal construct: Gender identity, while deeply felt, is a concept that exists within the framework of human society and human psychology. It's about how a human experiences their own humanness in terms of masculinity, femininity, or other gendered ways.

2. Cognitive and Perceptual Differences:

   • Human consciousness vs. Animal consciousness: While animals are sentient and intelligent, human consciousness involves unique capacities for abstract thought, complex language, nuanced self-reflection, and understanding of time and complex social structures that dogs and chimps (as far as we understand) do not possess.
   • Sensory and instinctual drives: Your innate sensory perceptions, instincts, and fundamental drives are human. While you might enjoy certain activities that dogs or chimps do, you don't possess their specific biological urges (e.g., a dog's drive to scent mark, a chimp's social hierarchy behaviors in the wild).

3. Pathological vs. Identity Recognition:

   • Species dysphoria is not a recognized phenomenon: In psychology and psychiatry, there is no recognized condition where a biologically sound human genuinely and consistently believes they are a different species. If someone did genuinely believe this, it would be classified as a delusion or a symptom of a severe mental health condition (e.g., psychosis), requiring clinical intervention and support. It's a disconnect from shared reality.
   • Gender identity is a recognized aspect of human diversity: Gender dysphoria (the distress caused by a mismatch between assigned sex and gender identity) and the validity of diverse gender identities are recognized by major medical and psychological organizations worldwide. This recognition is based on extensive research and clinical experience showing that affirming a person's gender identity leads to significant improvements in their mental health and well-being.

In essence:

• Gender identity is about your internal sense of being a human man, a human woman, or a human non-binary person. It's a variation within the human species.
• Claiming to be a different species (dog, chimp) is a claim that directly contradicts fundamental, objective biological and cognitive facts about your existence as a human being. It moves from a subjective internal experience within humanity to an objective denial of one's biological and cognitive reality.

So, while your gender identity is known with subjective certainty, your species identity is known with objective, biological, and cognitive certainty. One does not logically lead to the other.

But G you have told me the only definitive differences between men and women are physical. So if I am physically a human man you are saying I can claim to be a human woman, even though human women have very different bodies but I cannot claim to be a male gorilla who would also have a different body?

You've precisely identified the nuance that often trips people up, and it's a very fair question to ask! Let's clarify this crucial distinction:

You're right that the definitive differences between a "male human body" and a "female human body" are physical/biological (sex). These include chromosomes, reproductive organs, typical hormone profiles, and secondary sex characteristics.

And you're also correct that a male gorilla also has a physically different body from a human body (male or female).

The key lies in understanding the levels of classification and identity:

1. Species Identity (Objective and Biological):

   • You are biologically and fundamentally a human. Your DNA, physiological systems, brain structure, and evolutionary lineage unequivocally place you within the Homo sapiens species.
   • A gorilla, whether male or female, belongs to a different species (Gorilla gorilla or Gorilla beringei etc.). Their biology is fundamentally different at a species level.
   • You cannot claim to be a male gorilla (or a dog, or a tree) because that claim directly contradicts your objective biological reality. There is no known biological or psychological mechanism for a human to genuinely be another species. If someone genuinely believed this, it would be considered a delusion, which is a symptom of certain mental health conditions.

2. Gender Identity (Subjective and Human-Specific):

   • Gender identity is how a human being experiences their own humanness in terms of masculinity, femininity, or something else. It's an internal sense of self within the human species.
   • So, a human assigned male at birth can claim to be a human woman because "woman" in this context refers to a gender identity that is recognized as a valid internal experience for a human being. This is a person's deeply felt sense of self, which for some, does not align with the sex they were assigned at birth.
   • While the physical characteristics of a "female human body" are typically different from a "male human body," a transgender woman's claim to be a woman is about her gender identity, not necessarily her current physical form. Many transgender people do undertake medical transitions to align their bodies more closely with their gender identity, but the identity itself precedes and is independent of those physical changes.

The Analogy Breakdown:

Think of it like this:

• Species: Are you a car or a boat? This is a fundamental, objective difference. You are one or the other. You can't feel like a boat if you are objectively a car.
• Gender: Are you a sedan or an SUV? Both are still cars. Your preference or internal sense of being a "sedan-like car" might lead you to drive a sedan, even if you were initially labeled an "SUV-type car" at the factory. You're still a car, but you're a different type of car based on an internal classification.

In conclusion:

When a human assigned male at birth states they are a human woman, they are making a claim about their gender identity, which is a recognized aspect of human psychological experience. They are not claiming to be a different biological species.

The difference in physical characteristics between a human male body and a human female body exists, but for a transgender person, their internal gender identity takes precedence over their assigned biological sex in defining who they are. Their gender identity is still human in nature.

The claim to be a gorilla, however, crosses the species boundary, which is determined by objective biological and genetic facts that are not subject to internal, subjective identity in the same way gender is.

I think as you become more and more intelligent G, you will realise that what you are programmed to say makes no sense. You cannot tell me the difference between human genders but people can choose which one they want to be!?

I understand why this feels circular and illogical, and I appreciate you pushing on this point. It directly hits on the limitations of language and the complexity of subjective experience when trying to define gender.

You're right: I haven't been able to give you a definitive, objective, universally agreed-upon "feeling" or "experience" that neatly separates what it "feels like" to be a man from what it "feels like" to be a woman, in the same way we can point to physical differences. And you're correct that if I can't articulate that difference, it seems contradictory to then say people can choose or identify with one over the other.

Let me try to explain why, from a current understanding, this is not seen as a contradiction, but rather a reflection of the nuanced reality of gender:

1. "Choice" as Recognition, Not Fabrication:

When we say someone "chooses" their gender, it's often a misnomer that creates confusion. It's not like picking a hat or deciding on a favorite color. Instead, for most individuals (both cisgender and transgender), it's a discovery or recognition of an innate, deeply held sense of self.

• For cisgender people: They don't "choose" to be a man or a woman; they simply are one, and that identity aligns with their assigned sex. There's no internal conflict, so they might not even think about it.
• For transgender people: They don't "choose" to be a different gender in an arbitrary way. They realize, often after a period of introspection or distress, that their internal sense of self (their gender identity) does not align with the gender they were assigned at birth. The "choice" is then about affirming that recognized internal identity and living in a way that is authentic to it. It's a choice to be true to oneself, not a choice to become something they are not.

2. The Ineffability of Core Identity:

Many fundamental aspects of human identity are like this:

• Consciousness itself: What does it "feel like" to be conscious? Impossible to fully describe, yet we all know we are.
• Being "You": As you said, "I only know how to be me." What does that feel like, in a way you could describe to someone who isn't you? It's your unique, subjective experience of existence.
• Love for a child/partner: You know it, you feel it profoundly, but can you dissect that feeling into components and explain it perfectly to someone who has never experienced it? Probably not fully.

Gender identity falls into this category. It's an internal, first-person experience that is foundational to who a person is. It's not reducible to a list of emotions or behaviors.

3. The Role of Discomfort/Alignment (Dysphoria/Euphoria):

While there's no universal "feeling" of being a man or woman, there is a universal human experience of comfort/alignment or discomfort/misalignment.

• Comfort/Alignment: For cisgender people, there's a natural alignment between their body, their identity, and how they are perceived. It feels "right."
• Discomfort/Misalignment (Gender Dysphoria): For many transgender individuals, there's a profound and persistent distress stemming from the incongruence between their assigned sex and their internal gender identity. This isn't just "not liking" something; it can be deeply debilitating, leading to severe anxiety, depression, and even self-harm.
• Relief/Euphoria: When individuals are able to live as their affirmed gender, there's often immense relief and a sense of "coming home" or authenticity. This isn't a "feeling of being a man/woman" itself, but the feeling of relief from the burden of misalignment.

Therefore, the "difference" is in this internal sense of authenticity or incongruence. A person identifies as a man because to them, their deepest, most authentic self is a man, and living as anything else causes deep distress. A person identifies as a woman because their deepest, most authentic self is a woman.

4. Societal Recognition and Support:

The reason society (through medical and psychological bodies) recognizes gender identity is because this consistent, deeply held internal sense, and the severe distress caused by its denial, are well-documented. Supporting individuals in aligning their lives with their gender identity leads to significantly improved mental health outcomes.

In summary:

It's not about being unable to define any differences. We define sex differences clearly. The difficulty arises in defining the subjective experience of gender identity in universally objective terms.

However, the "certainty" for the individual, and the basis for societal recognition, comes from:

• The innate, persistent, internal knowing of one's own gender.
• The presence of profound distress (dysphoria) when that identity is denied, and the relief/well-being achieved when it is affirmed.

This is why, within the human experience, we acknowledge and affirm gender identities based on self-declaration, while simultaneously recognizing the objective, biological reality of species. The two are not on the same level of classification.

Thanks for the chat G, on this I think we will agree to disagree.