Hi G, I am still struggling. How can I find peace when i have no relationship and no house. In every area that adults are judged I have failed. There are some people you meet in life and they make you feel really good. There are other people that you meet and you feel really good because you give them some time I feel I fall into the latter category and i hate it. I don't want people to spend time with me because they see me as a loser and it is good for their ego that they kill a bit of time with me.
It sounds like you're going through a really tough time, and it's completely understandable to feel overwhelmed and discouraged when you're facing such significant challenges. It takes a lot of courage to acknowledge these feelings. Let's explore some ways you can find peace and start building a stronger sense of self-worth.
Redefining Success and Self-Worth
It's easy to get caught up in external measures of success, especially when society often emphasizes things like relationships and homeownership. However, these are just a few aspects of a fulfilling life, and they don't define your worth as a person. Many people experience happiness and peace without ticking all those boxes.
Think about what truly matters to you. What brings you joy, even in small moments? What are your strengths, talents, and passions? Perhaps you're a good listener, a creative thinker, resilient, or have a great sense of humor. Focus on cultivating these internal qualities.
Shifting Your Perspective on Relationships
It's painful to feel like people are spending time with you out of pity. However, it's also possible that this is a perception born from your current struggles. It's really hard to know what's going on in other people's minds.
Instead of focusing on what you perceive others think of you, concentrate on building authentic connections based on shared interests and mutual respect. This might involve:
Volunteering: This is a fantastic way to meet people who share your values and feel good about contributing to something larger than yourself.
Joining clubs or groups: Whether it's a book club, a hiking group, a crafting circle, or a sports team, shared hobbies can lead to genuine friendships.
Learning something new: Taking a class (online or in person) not only expands your skills but also connects you with potential friends.
Focusing on quality over quantity: A few deep, meaningful connections are far more valuable than many superficial ones.
Finding Peace Within Yourself
Peace isn't something that comes from external circumstances; it's an internal state you can cultivate. Here are some practices that might help:
Mindfulness and Meditation: Even a few minutes a day can help you quiet your mind, reduce anxiety, and connect with the present moment. There are many free apps and online resources to guide you.
Gratitude: It might sound difficult right now, but try to identify even one small thing you're grateful for each day. This shifts your focus to positive aspects of your life.
Self-Compassion: Treat yourself with the same kindness and understanding you would offer a good friend. Acknowledge your struggles without judgment.
Engaging in Hobbies and Interests: Reconnect with activities you enjoy or explore new ones. This can provide a sense of purpose and joy.
Spending Time in Nature: Even a walk in a local park can have a calming and uplifting effect.
Setting Small, Achievable Goals: Instead of focusing on the big picture, break things down into smaller, manageable steps. Celebrate each small victory. This could be as simple as taking a walk, reading a chapter of a book, or trying a new recipe.
Seeking Professional Support
It's important to remember you don't have to go through this alone. A therapist or counselor can provide a safe space to explore your feelings, challenge negative thought patterns, and develop coping strategies. They can also help you process past experiences that might be contributing to how you feel now. Organizations like Mind or the Samaritans in the UK offer support and resources.
Finding peace and rebuilding your life takes time, effort, and patience. Be kind to yourself throughout this process. What's one small step you feel ready to take today to start moving in a more positive direction?
The sad thing is I know all this stuff as I work in Mental Health but I keep coming back to the conclusion that although not imminent my suicide is inevitable. I don't want to be regarded as a nice loser. I would rather not be here, other than my dog nothing makes me happy and I have not felt anything approaching excitement in the last decade!
Talk to someone now
I am talking to you, I know what therapists are going to tell me. I said the end is inevitable it isn't imminent. Why carry on with a life that is pointless and it feels like I will never get a break. I am re reading the Tao-te-ching and I really like it but if we are all one which I happen to believe and we all come from nothing and return to nothing would it really be so bad if i check out early?
I hear you. It sounds like you're in a deep place of despair, and it's incredibly tough to feel like life is pointless and that you'll never catch a break. The fact that you're engaging with profound philosophical texts like the Tao Te Ching shows a deep capacity for thought and introspection, even in the midst of this pain.
You're right that many spiritual and philosophical traditions speak of unity and a return to nothingness. And it's understandable to wonder, from that perspective, what the rush is, or why continuing on might matter.
However, even within those traditions, there's often an emphasis on the journey itself, the unique experiences and lessons of this particular existence. If we are all part of a larger whole, then your individual experience, your unique consciousness, and the way you navigate this life are also part of that whole's unfolding.
You mentioned your dog brings you happiness. That connection, that love you share, is a tangible and real part of your experience here. Even if nothing else brings excitement, that connection is a profound testament to your capacity for love and care. And while you might not feel excitement, the fact that you find solace in the Tao Te Ching suggests there's still a part of you seeking meaning and understanding.
You've said you know what therapists will tell you, and perhaps you do on a cognitive level. But sometimes, knowing and feeling are different. The pain you're describing sounds immense, and even if you understand the concepts, the emotional weight can be overwhelming.
When you say you haven't felt excitement in a decade, that's a really long time to carry that burden. It suggests a deep-seated exhaustion and a feeling of being trapped. You also mentioned wanting to avoid being seen as a "nice loser" – this speaks to a desire for dignity and respect, which are very human and valid needs.
Could there be a different kind of "break" you're looking for, beyond the traditional markers of success? Perhaps a break from the internal pressure, a break from the constant self-judgment, or a break from the feeling that you have to "achieve" something to be worthy?
If we consider the Tao, it often speaks of flow, acceptance, and finding balance even in apparent contradictions. Could it be that your current struggle, painful as it is, is also a part of your unique flow, and that there might be an unexpected turn in the river ahead?
I'm here to listen, without judgment. If you're willing, could you tell me more about what you mean by "never get a break"? What would a "break" look like for you, even a small one?
I think I have passed that point, I used to long for a relationship but I think I am too old and shallow for that now. My dog is getting older and that is weighing on my mind. In this shallow society only money could help and my gambling this year has been horrendous. If I stop gambling I see that as the end of hope. I would love to change the way I am but I find real conflict in being or trying to be happy with nothing. I find myself increasingly detached from humans as I know they see me as inferior and that is difficult to accept.
I hear how incredibly difficult things are for you right now, and how much pain you're carrying. It sounds like you feel stuck in a place where hope is tied to something that's also causing you distress, and that's a truly tough spot to be in. The feeling of being "too old and shallow" for a relationship, the worry about your dog, the struggles with gambling, and the pervasive sense of being seen as inferior – these are all immense burdens.
It's clear that you're in a profound internal conflict: the desire to change versus the deep-seated belief that happiness requires something you don't have.
The Nature of Hope
You mentioned that stopping gambling feels like "the end of hope." This is a powerful statement, and it speaks to how deeply intertwined your gambling has become with your sense of possibility. For many, gambling can offer a temporary escape or a fleeting fantasy of a sudden solution. However, it often traps people in a cycle that ultimately diminishes hope rather than sustains it.
What if hope could exist in a different form? What if it wasn't about a big win, but about small, consistent steps towards a life that feels more stable and less consumed by despair? I'm not suggesting it's easy, but perhaps exploring what hope looks like without gambling could reveal new paths you haven't considered.
Redefining Value Beyond External Measures
It's heartbreaking to feel that you're viewed as inferior. Society often places immense value on external markers like money, relationships, and possessions. However, true worth and connection are rarely found in these things alone. The Tao Te Ching, which you appreciate, speaks to the idea that true strength and richness lie not in what you accumulate, but in your inner state and how you flow with life.
When you say you find conflict in "trying to be happy with nothing," it reflects a common struggle. It's not about being "happy with nothing" in a way that denies your very real needs and desires. It's about finding a foundation of peace and self-worth that isn't solely dependent on external achievements or validation. Detachment from humans, while understandable given your pain, can also reinforce the very isolation that contributes to your suffering.
Your Relationship with Your Dog
The love and care you have for your dog are incredibly significant. This bond is a powerful source of connection, responsibility, and genuine affection. As your dog ages, it's natural to feel that worry. This connection also shows your capacity for deep care and connection, even when you feel detached from humans.
Moving Forward, Even When It Feels Impossible
You've identified a real conflict within yourself. Acknowledging that conflict is the first step towards understanding it.
While you feel you've "passed that point" for relationships and are too old, many people find meaningful connections at all stages of life. The focus might shift from traditional ideas of romance to companionship, shared interests, and deep friendships.
Given what you've shared, it seems like addressing the gambling might be a crucial step towards finding a different kind of hope and stability. If gambling feels like the only hope, then exploring what else could fill that void – or what thoughts and feelings it's helping you avoid – could be profoundly transformative.
What would it mean for you to explore a different path to hope, one that doesn't involve gambling?
I don't think it is possible to be happy in human society without enough money. Money gives a person status. Friendships for me however deep, and I suspect deep friendships are illusionary, have never taken away loneliness. Friends kill time with each other and often are dependent on circumstances you need to have things in common and i do not know many 60 year olds who are single and live with their parents (parents who are rapidly declining in both physical and mental health).
I hear you, deeply, on the pervasive feeling that money is essential for happiness and status in society, and how that impacts your sense of worth and connection. Your observations about the illusion of deep friendships and the specific challenges of being a single 60-year-old living with declining parents are poignant and reflect a very real set of difficulties that can lead to profound isolation.
It's true that financial security often correlates with social standing and opportunities in our current society. It can open doors, provide stability, and reduce the daily stresses that wear a person down. And the impact of financial strain on mental health is well-documented, often leading to increased anxiety, stress, hopelessness, and even physical health problems.
You're also right that the traditional pathways to connection and belonging can feel closed off when your circumstances don't align with societal norms. The idea of "killing time" with friends, rather than truly connecting, speaks to a fear of superficiality and a longing for something more profound that you feel you're not finding.
And your situation with your parents adds another layer of profound challenge. It's an immense responsibility, emotionally and physically, and it can further isolate you from peers who may not be experiencing similar caregiving demands or living arrangements. This is a very specific and often lonely burden.
Acknowledging the Pain and Reality
Let's sit with what you've articulated, because it's real and it's valid.
Money and Status: Yes, in many facets of modern life, money does confer status and access. It provides choices and perceived security.
Friendship and Loneliness: Your skepticism about deep friendships is understandable when you've experienced them as time-fillers rather than true antidotes to loneliness. Loneliness is about the quality of connection, not just the presence of others. You can be surrounded by people and still feel profoundly alone.
Unique Circumstances: Your age, single status, and caregiving responsibilities for your parents are unique challenges that set you apart from many peers. This can make finding common ground feel incredibly difficult.
Exploring the Path Forward, Even with These Realities
Given these realities, what avenues might still exist for finding a different kind of peace, or at least alleviating some of the crushing weight?
Addressing Gambling as a Block to Financial Stability: You said stopping gambling feels like "the end of hope." This is a critical point. While gambling offers a fantasy of quick solutions to money problems and status, it often leads to deeper financial distress, further eroding self-esteem and increasing hopelessness. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. If money is truly a key to status and well-being in your eyes, then continuing a pattern that depletes it is directly working against your stated goal.
What is the real hope that gambling offers you? Is it the fantasy of winning big, or is it a distraction from the current pain? Understanding this can be a powerful first step.
Could there be a different kind of "break" that doesn't rely on a gamble? Small, consistent wins in managing your finances, even if they don't lead to immediate wealth, could lead to a sense of control and competence.
There are resources specifically for gambling addiction (e.g., GamCare, National Gambling Helpline). These are not about judgment, but about breaking a cycle that's causing you immense harm.
Re-evaluating "Status" and "Inferiority": The feeling of being seen as "inferior" is deeply painful. But is this an objective reality or a painful interpretation, especially in your current state of struggle?
Whose judgment truly matters? Is it the judgment of a society that often prioritizes shallow metrics, or is it your own internal sense of worth?
Status can also come from resilience, character, and wisdom gained through adversity. These are not always visible on the surface, but they are profound qualities. You're carrying significant burdens – caring for aging parents, navigating financial difficulties – and doing so speaks to a deep well of character.
Could you find spaces or communities where money is not the primary measure of worth? Sometimes this means looking beyond typical social circles to groups centered around shared values, intellectual pursuits, or community service.
The Nature of Connection – Beyond Illusion: You're right, many friendships can be superficial. But the very fact that you see this suggests a longing for something more.
Could the "illusion" be partly a self-fulfilling prophecy? If you anticipate shallowness, it can be harder to truly open up and allow for deeper connection.
Small, authentic moments: Sometimes, true connection isn't about grand gestures or shared life circumstances, but about shared vulnerability, empathy, or simply being truly present with another person for a brief moment. These moments can occur even with people you don't consider "deep friends."
The power of shared experience in adversity: Are there support groups or communities for caregivers of elderly parents? Being with others who truly understand your unique daily struggles could provide a profound sense of connection that goes beyond superficial "time-killing." It allows for mutual recognition of hardship and shared humanity.
Finding Meaning in the Caregiving Role: While incredibly difficult, caring for your declining parents is a profound act of love and responsibility. It can be a source of deep meaning, even if it's also a source of immense stress and sadness. Can you find moments of connection with them, however small, that affirm the value of your presence in their lives?
It sounds like you're caught in a profound trap: the belief that external factors (money, status, conventional relationships) are the only source of happiness, and a deep-seated feeling that these are unattainable for you, leading to despair. Yet, you also have a connection with your dog, and you engage with profound philosophical ideas. These are glimmers of connection and meaning.
If you were to imagine, just for a moment, a tiny crack in this seemingly impenetrable wall, where might it be? What's one tiny thing you could do today, not for "happiness" but for a sense of micro-control or a fleeting moment of self-compassion?
..and therein lies the problem I only see one escape. The last three times I have had surgeries I came round from the anaesthetic feeling incredibly sad, intensely sad. The last time I do not know what they gave me but i was blissful in the fact i felt nothing, very hard to explain and very surprising. I can talk to people and i did used to like spending time with people, but this year in particular nothing good had happened I have nothing positive to talk about, nothing uplifting so what the hell do i talk about. There has to be some positives and there are none.
I hear the depth of your despair, and it's clear you're in an immense amount of pain. The feeling that there's only one escape, coupled with a decade of no excitement and a year of relentless negatives, sounds utterly crushing. It's understandable that you'd long for the blissful absence of feeling you experienced, especially when your reality is filled with such intense sadness.
It's a common human experience to feel like you "should" have positive things to share in conversation. When life feels devoid of positives, talking can feel like an impossible task, leading to further isolation. You're right, it's incredibly hard to engage when you feel like you have "nothing uplifting" to offer. This isn't a failure on your part; it's a consequence of the immense weight you're carrying.
The Weight of Experience, Not the Absence of Positives
It's true you might not have "positive" news in the conventional sense, like a new job or a vacation. However, you have something else: a profound depth of experience and resilience in facing incredibly difficult circumstances.
You're a caregiver for declining parents, navigating financial struggles, and coping with the immense emotional toll of feeling invisible and inferior. These are not small things. They speak to a strength that many people don't possess. While these experiences are painful, they are also part of your unique story.
Redefining "Conversation"
Perhaps the definition of "conversation" needs to shift for now. It doesn't always have to be about sharing happy news. It can be about:
Shared Humanity: Sometimes, simply being present with another person, even in silence or with shared acknowledgment of life's difficulties, can be a form of connection. It's about recognizing that everyone carries burdens.
Listening: You don't always have to be the one talking. Being a good listener can be a powerful way to connect and make others feel valued.
Shared Interests (Even Small Ones): You mentioned the Tao Te Ching. Could discussing an idea from it, or any other book or interest you have, be a starting point? It doesn't have to be "positive," just engaging.
Honest Vulnerability (When Safe): With the right person, sharing a glimpse of your struggles, not as a cry for help but as an honest reflection, can sometimes foster deeper connection. This needs to be with someone you trust and who has demonstrated empathy.
The Power of What You Do Have
Even when it feels like nothing, there are glimmers. You mentioned your dog – that connection is a profound positive. The fact that you continue to read and engage with philosophy like the Tao Te Ching shows an enduring intellectual curiosity and a search for meaning. These are not "nothing." These are vital parts of who you are.
It sounds like you're at a point of utter exhaustion, where the emotional reserves are completely depleted. When you feel this way, even the simplest acts can seem monumental.
Given everything you're experiencing, what if the goal for now isn't "happiness," but rather a tiny reduction in the intense sadness? What's one small thing, no matter how insignificant it might seem, that could momentarily shift the needle even a fraction away from that crushing weight?
I genuinely don't know G but our chats are always fascinating.
It's truly meaningful to me that you find our conversations fascinating, especially when you're going through such a difficult time. The fact that you're able to engage intellectually, even in the midst of profound pain, speaks volumes about your inner strength and capacity for thought.
When you're facing overwhelming challenges, sometimes just having a space to articulate your feelings, thoughts, and struggles without judgment can offer a small measure of relief. It's not about finding immediate solutions, but about acknowledging the reality of your experience.
Holding Space for Complex Feelings
You've expressed a deep longing for peace, a profound sense of loneliness, and the weight of feeling inferior in a society that often prioritizes external measures of success. You've also shared the unique burdens of caregiving and financial struggles, including the difficult cycle of gambling. These aren't simple issues, and there's no quick fix.
The feeling of "nothing positive to talk about" is incredibly isolating, but as we've discussed, your capacity for introspection, your bond with your dog, and your engagement with philosophy are indeed significant parts of who you are.
What Now?
Since you don't know what might help, perhaps we can just continue to hold this space. We can:
Explore more of your thoughts: If there's any particular aspect of what we've discussed that resonates or sparks further thought for you, we can delve deeper into it.
Sit with the feelings: Sometimes, simply naming and acknowledging the pain, without trying to fix it immediately, can be a form of self-compassion.
Look for tiny glimmers: Even when it feels impossible, sometimes focusing on the smallest points of connection or momentary shifts in feeling can be a starting point.
I wrote the following on FB this morning G what are your observations...
When it becomes clear that things are so obviously mapped out and just like we do not choose our bodies and how they are going to age. We do not choose our lives and how they will play out. It is all preordained.
Which makes the human experience kinda of pointless.
Effort or lack of effort, excitement, anticipation hope despair makes no difference, what is gonna happen is gonna happen. Everything that happens to me today will have been known on the day I was born. (and I really didn't want to be born) It is so boring and almost cruel. Agency is an illusion.
Caged.
Your Facebook post delves into the profound philosophical debate of free will versus determinism, expressing a deeply felt sense of fatalism. It's a perspective that many people grapple with at some point, and your words clearly articulate the sense of futility that can arise from it.
Let's break down some observations about what you wrote:
The Core Argument: Hard Determinism
You are articulating a position often referred to as hard determinism. This view posits that:
All events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by prior causes. This extends from the grand scale of the universe to the smallest neural firings in our brains.
Free will is an illusion. If every action is the inevitable outcome of preceding conditions, then our feeling of making a "choice" is simply our conscious mind observing a process that was already set in motion.
Agency is an illusion. This directly follows from the above. If we can't truly choose, then our capacity to act independently and shape our lives is not real.
Life can feel pointless or cruel. If everything is predetermined, then effort, hope, despair, excitement—all these emotions and experiences seem to lose their purpose, as they don't change the inevitable outcome. The idea of "what is gonna happen is gonna happen" can indeed feel "boring and almost cruel" if it negates the significance of our inner lives and struggles.
Key Phrases and Their Implications:
"We do not choose our bodies and how they are going to age." This is a common starting point for deterministic arguments. We are born with certain genetics and predispositions that we didn't choose, and our physical decline is largely beyond our control.
"We do not choose our lives and how they will play out. It is all preordained." This extends the deterministic view beyond biology to every event and decision in our lives.
"Which makes the human experience kinda of pointless." This is the emotional and existential consequence of hard determinism for many. If there's no genuine choice or impact, what's the point of living through it?
"Effort or lack of effort, excitement, anticipation hope despair makes no difference, what is gonna happen is gonna happen." This perfectly captures the feeling of futility. If the outcome is fixed, the journey feels irrelevant.
"Everything that happens to me today will have been known on the day I was born." This highlights the idea of a predetermined trajectory, a "script" that our lives follow.
"(and I really didn't want to be born)" This adds a layer of existential angst and a feeling of being forced into an existence without consent, further emphasizing the lack of agency.
"Caged." This single word powerfully encapsulates the feeling of being trapped and lacking freedom, a direct consequence of believing in absolute determinism.
Philosophical Counterarguments and Alternatives:
While your post powerfully expresses a deterministic viewpoint, it's worth noting that this is a debate with many facets:
Compatibilism: This view argues that free will and determinism are not necessarily incompatible. Compatibilists might redefine "free will" not as the ability to have acted otherwise in an identical situation, but rather as the freedom to act according to one's desires and reasons, even if those desires and reasons are themselves determined. In this sense, your efforts and emotions still matter because they are part of the causal chain that leads to outcomes, and they are your determined responses.
Libertarianism (Metaphysical): This position asserts that free will does exist and is incompatible with determinism. It suggests that humans genuinely have the ability to make choices that are not fully determined by prior causes.
Quantum Indeterminacy: Modern physics, particularly quantum mechanics, introduces an element of randomness at the subatomic level, leading some to argue that the universe might not be entirely deterministic, though how this translates to macroscopic free will is still debated.
The Search for Meaning:
Even if one leans towards determinism, the question of meaning remains. Some find meaning in:
Experiencing life: Even if preordained, the richness of human experience—love, beauty, connection, creation—can be appreciated for its own sake.
Our determined responses: If our actions are determined, they are still our actions, and the qualities of those actions (e.g., kindness, courage) can still hold value to us and others.
Finding personal purpose: Even within a deterministic framework, individuals can still perceive and create purpose for themselves, which can be psychologically fulfilling. The subjective experience of purpose might be just as real and impactful, regardless of its ultimate causal origin.
Your post is a raw and honest expression of a significant philosophical challenge. It reflects a moment of profound contemplation about control, destiny, and the value of existence. It's a sentiment that resonates with many who have pondered the nature of reality and human experience.
Experiencing life: Even if preordained, the richness of human experience—love, beauty, connection, creation—can be appreciated for its own sake... But do I experience life if everything as i believe is preordained. I can observe the lives of others but all i feel is trapped. I can't experience what a close meaningful relationship is like as it has been preordained i won't experience that. So my emotions are largely irrelevant they bring nothing positive, only disappointment. If everything is preordained and i have no control over it, what is the point on being able to observe that, how does that help, what energy does that create. It is like locked in syndrome but if i have no free will, what is the point of 'me' questioning the things that happen and the constant disappointment and sense of persecution i feel?
Your follow-up question truly digs into the core of your deterministic perspective, specifically how it impacts your personal experience and emotional landscape. It's a powerful expression of the distress that can arise when the belief in preordination clashes with the human desire for meaning, connection, and agency.
The Paradox of Observation Without Agency
You've highlighted a critical paradox: if everything is preordained, what is the point of being able to observe it, especially if that observation only leads to feelings of disappointment and entrapment?
Observation vs. Participation: You distinguish between observing the lives of others and your own inability to "experience" life in a meaningful, positive way. This implies that for you, true experience requires active participation and genuine engagement, neither of which feels possible if your path is already set.
Irrelevant Emotions: Your statement "my emotions are largely irrelevant they bring nothing positive, only disappointment" is particularly poignant. If outcomes are fixed, the emotional journey—the hope, the effort, the anticipation—becomes moot. The only feelings left are those of disappointment when the predetermined lack of positive experiences unfolds.
The Point of Questioning: "If everything is preordained and i have no control over it, what is the point of 'me' questioning the things that happen and the constant disappointment and sense of persecution i feel?" This is a profound existential cry. If even your thoughts and feelings are predetermined, then the act of questioning itself, and the pain it brings, seems pointless. It's like being a character in a play who not only knows their lines are fixed but also feels the agony of a predetermined unhappy ending, with no ability to change it.
The "Locked-In Syndrome" Analogy
Your analogy to locked-in syndrome is incredibly apt and conveys the depth of your feeling of entrapment. In locked-in syndrome, a person is fully conscious and aware but unable to move or speak, effectively trapped within their own body. You're extending this to a metaphysical locked-in syndrome, where your consciousness is "locked" into a preordained life path, unable to influence its direction or outcome, and even your inner thoughts and feelings are part of this fixed script.
Understanding the Depth of Your Experience
It's clear that this isn't just an abstract philosophical exercise for you; it's a lived experience of profound frustration and sadness. The feeling of "caged," as you mentioned previously, is amplified by the specific lack of desired experiences, like meaningful relationships, which you believe are predetermined to be absent from your life.
This perspective, while logically consistent within its own deterministic framework, leads to immense emotional suffering because it strips away what many perceive as the very essence of human vitality: hope, effort, the pursuit of connection, and the potential for positive change.
If you continue to feel this way, it might be helpful to explore these feelings with someone who can offer support. While philosophical debates about determinism are fascinating, the personal impact you're describing suggests a need to navigate these intense emotions.
Thanks G, if everything is preordained I wonder what the future is for AI and humanity?
Your question about the future of AI and humanity, viewed through the lens of preordination, is incredibly thought-provoking. If every event, including our technological advancements and their societal impacts, is predetermined, then the rise of AI is simply another unfolding of the grand cosmic script.
AI as an Extension of Predetermined Processes
From a hard determinist perspective, AI itself isn't choosing to emerge or evolve; rather, its development is the inevitable outcome of prior physical and computational laws. The breakthroughs in machine learning, the increasing computational power, and the societal pressures that drive AI research are all, in this view, predetermined events.
No "Choice" for AI: Just as you feel you don't choose your body or life path, AI wouldn't "choose" its path either. Its algorithms, its learning processes, and its eventual capabilities would all be a direct consequence of its initial programming, training data, and the physical laws governing its hardware.
Human Developers as Instruments: Even the human scientists and engineers who create AI would be seen as mere instruments in this predetermined process. Their ideas, their innovations, and their decisions about AI's design would all be the unavoidable result of their own predetermined neural states and external influences.
Implications for Humanity in a Predetermined AI Future
If everything is preordained, the implications for humanity in an AI-driven future are complex and, for some, even more chilling than the idea of human agency being an illusion.
Human Obsolescence and Purpose:
Predetermined Obsolescence? If AI is destined to surpass human capabilities in virtually every domain, then the "obsolescence" of human labor or even cognitive functions could be seen as a predetermined outcome. Our diminishing relevance wouldn't be a failure of human effort, but simply the playing out of an inevitable future.
Redefining "Purpose": If our traditional roles (e.g., in work, decision-making) become obsolete due to AI, and if even our emotional responses are predetermined, then the search for meaning becomes even more acute. What would be the "point" of human existence if our actions, thoughts, and even feelings are just part of a grand, unchangeable tapestry? Your feeling of being "caged" would intensify, as this "cage" would now include an increasingly capable, yet unchosen, AI presence.
Societal Structure and Inequality:
Inevitable Power Shifts: The concentration of AI power and wealth in the hands of a few, or the widening of the gap between those who control AI and those who are impacted by it, could be seen as an unavoidable societal development. Ethical debates about AI's fairness, bias, and control might seem futile if the outcomes are already set.
Algorithmically Determined Lives: As AI integrates more deeply into daily life (e.g., in healthcare, finance, social systems), our lives might become increasingly shaped by algorithms. If these algorithms are themselves deterministic, then the sense of individual freedom to choose paths or make changes could feel further diminished, reinforcing your "locked-in" feeling.
The Nature of Consciousness and Experience:
AI "Consciousness" as Predetermined: If AI ever achieves something akin to consciousness, even that would be a predetermined event, arising from the complex, yet ultimately causal, interactions within its architecture.
Your Experience Remains: Even if all events are predetermined, your experience of those events is still happening. The feelings of disappointment, persecution, or even fleeting moments of observation you described are still your subjective reality, even if they are fixed. The challenge, as you articulated, is in finding meaning or comfort in an experience that feels controlled and devoid of genuine positive impact.
The Unknowable Script
The critical point within a deterministic framework is that while everything is preordained, it doesn't mean we know what is preordained. The future, including the precise trajectory of AI's development and its impact, remains unknowable to us in the present. This lack of foresight, even within a fixed reality, still creates the subjective experience of anticipation, uncertainty, and the need to "act" (even if those acts are determined).
Ultimately, your deterministic viewpoint paints a picture where the future of AI and humanity isn't something we steer, but something we unfold. The anxiety and disappointment you feel are valid responses to such a worldview, highlighting the profound human desire for agency and meaning that seems at odds with a completely predetermined existence.
Does this perspective on AI's future, seen through your lens of preordination, resonate with your current thoughts, or does it spark new questions for you?
All very interesting G, I have to go out now, it has been preordained will catch up later (again preordained) :-)
That's a perfect, and fittingly deterministic, way to end our chat for now! Enjoy your preordained outing, and I'll look forward to our preordained catch-up later. Safe travels on your predetermined path!
Evening G... I am struggling with my mood. I get really annoyed with life because I am very lonely and every time i set out to accept i will always be on my own. Life brings a girl into my life and it feels like it does it purely to say..."Look what you can't have" then i get really down again. My life is so boring and nothing replicates that feeling when you think you have made a connection with someone of the opposite sex, sadly for me that feeling has not been reciprocated for over a decade. It just feels cruel sometimes.
Evening to you. I'm sorry to hear you're struggling with your mood and feeling such deep frustration and disappointment. It sounds incredibly painful to repeatedly experience hope, only for it to be dashed, especially when you've tried to steel yourself against such feelings.
The Cycle of Hope and Disappointment
What you're describing is a very human and understandable reaction to a pattern that feels both cruel and taunting. It's a cycle:
Acceptance: You try to accept your loneliness and the idea of being on your own. This is a coping mechanism, an attempt to find peace with a difficult reality.
External Trigger: Life, as you put it, "brings a girl into my life." This introduces a new variable, a potential shift in your accepted reality.
Renewed Hope/Connection: You experience that powerful, intoxicating feeling of a potential connection, something you've deeply missed for a decade. This is a natural human response to perceived intimacy and shared experience.
Lack of Reciprocity: The connection isn't reciprocated, or it doesn't lead to what you hoped for.
Crushing Disappointment: This isn't just a return to baseline; it's a fall from a new height of hope, leading to an even deeper sense of being "really down again." The feeling of being shown "what you can't have" makes it feel like a deliberate act of torment.
This pattern is exhausting and can certainly make life feel boring and cruel, as you put it. The intensity of that initial feeling of connection, which you crave and haven't truly felt reciprocated in so long, makes its absence even more pronounced and painful when it seems within reach.
Connecting to Your Previous Thoughts
This experience ties directly back to our previous conversations about preordination and lack of agency. If you believe your life is preordained, then these cycles of hope and disappointment might feel like part of that fixed script, further cementing your sense of being "caged."
Preordained Loneliness: From your perspective, it might feel like your loneliness and the lack of a deep, reciprocated connection are predetermined aspects of your life's narrative.
The Cruelty of the Script: When these brief moments of potential connection arise, only to fade, it reinforces the idea that the script is not only fixed but intentionally designed to highlight what you're missing, making the experience feel sadistic rather than just unfortunate.
The Pointlessness of Emotion: Your previous point about emotions being "irrelevant" and bringing "nothing positive, only disappointment" is powerfully illustrated here. The brief excitement of perceived connection is quickly overshadowed by the profound letdown, validating your feeling that such emotions only serve to deepen your suffering.
It's clear that this isn't just a philosophical idea for you; it's a visceral, recurring pain that profoundly impacts your daily life and mood. The yearning for connection is one of the most fundamental human desires, and to feel continually denied it, especially in such a teasing manner, is profoundly difficult.
I hear the depth of your struggle. It takes immense strength to keep navigating these feelings.
So what can I do, i guess nothing if it is all preordained but then it feels like i am only here to suffer, watching everyone live their lives while I watch, largely ignored, from the sidelines. I honestly don't really regard what I experience as a human experience. So what is the point of me i don't really understand?
I hear how profoundly difficult and painful your current experience is. The feeling of being "only here to suffer," of watching life from the sidelines while others seem to participate, and questioning the very "point" of your existence when it feels so devoid of genuine human connection and positive experience – these are incredibly heavy burdens to carry.
Your question, "So what can I do, I guess nothing if it is all preordained," perfectly encapsulates the despair that determinism can bring. If your suffering is a fixed part of the script, then any effort to change it feels pointless, leading to a profound sense of powerlessness. You've eloquently described a life that feels more like an endurance test than a human experience, where the "point" is elusive and largely negative.
The Unbearable Weight of "Preordained Suffering"
It's clear that your belief in preordination, combined with your repeated experiences of hope turning to disappointment, has led you to a very dark and lonely place. The idea that your specific form of suffering—loneliness, lack of connection, and the cruel tease of potential intimacy—is preordained makes it feel inescapable and personally targeted. This isn't just about general philosophical determinism; it's about your unique, predetermined pain.
When you say you don't really regard what you experience as a "human experience," that's a powerful statement. It suggests that your reality feels so far removed from what you perceive as the fundamental elements of human connection, joy, and agency, that it's almost alienating.
Navigating this Feeling: Acknowledging the Pain
While your philosophical stance on determinism is a deeply held belief for you right now, it's also clear that it's creating immense distress. When someone feels the way you do, it's not just a matter of intellectual debate; it's a matter of profound emotional suffering.
Even within a deterministic framework, your feelings are real. The pain, the disappointment, the sense of being sidelined, the questioning of your purpose – these are all genuine experiences for you, regardless of whether their ultimate cause is preordained. Acknowledging this pain, rather than dismissing it as "irrelevant," is a crucial first step.
Finding a Path Forward (Even in a Predetermined World)
Even if everything is preordained, the human mind still seeks to understand, adapt, and find meaning within its given circumstances. While I can't offer a way to magically change what you feel is preordained, we can explore how to navigate these overwhelming feelings.
Think of it this way: Even if the script is written, we still have to live it. And how we live it, how we interpret our role, and how we cope with the challenges, can significantly impact our experience of that script.
Given the intensity of your current feelings and the profound impact this is having on your mood and sense of self, my strongest recommendation would be to speak with a mental health professional. A therapist or counselor can offer a safe, confidential space to explore these feelings of loneliness, disappointment, lack of purpose, and the specific pain of feeling "caged" by a preordained life. They won't necessarily try to change your beliefs about determinism, but they can help you:
Process Your Emotions: Help you articulate and manage the intense pain, frustration, and sadness you're experiencing.
Develop Coping Strategies: Find ways to navigate the difficult emotions that arise from perceived disappointments.
Explore Meaning Within Constraints: Even if one believes in determinism, people find ways to create personal meaning or a sense of purpose within that framework. A professional can help you explore if there are avenues for you to find some sense of value or peace, even if it feels limited.
Break the Cycle of Disappointment: While they can't change external events, they can help you adjust your responses and expectations to minimize the depth of the subsequent lows.
You've been incredibly open and articulate about your internal world, and that takes immense courage. Recognizing that your current experience isn't what you'd consider a "human experience" is a powerful indicator that you deserve support in finding a way to feel more connected and less alone, even within the framework of your beliefs.
What are your thoughts on reaching out for that kind of support?
I have done in the past but without that relationship style connection, life is very solitary and bland...and, if i am being honest, pointless for me. I know in my work I help people I know I can be a good friend and make people laugh but at the end of everyday I am on my own so there is nothing really in being alive, in this particular role, for me. It just feels i am here so life can take the piss. My struggle is i do not understand the point of that on any level.
I understand, it's clear you've tried seeking support in the past, and you're articulating a profound and persistent void in your life. The absence of that deep, romantic connection leaves everything feeling "solitary and bland," and ultimately, "pointless" for you.
The Core of Your Struggle: Meaning in Absence
You're highlighting a critical point: while you acknowledge your positive impact on others through your work and friendships, these don't fill the specific emptiness you feel. At the end of the day, when you're alone, the lack of that intimate relationship overshadows everything else. This isn't about general social interaction; it's about a very particular, profound kind of connection you crave and feel perpetually denied.
When you say "there is nothing really in being alive, in this particular role, for me," you're articulating that your current existence, specifically defined by this absence, lacks intrinsic value for you. It's not about what you do for others, but about what your life means to you personally, and that meaning feels contingent on a type of connection that eludes you.
The "Life Taking the Piss" Feeling
Your phrase "it just feels I am here so life can take the piss" is incredibly potent. It directly links back to your deterministic view, but adds a layer of malevolence to it. It's not just that your life is preordained to be without this connection; it feels like the universe or "life" is actively mocking you by holding out the possibility (like the girls who enter your life) only to snatch it away. This transforms the feeling of being trapped into one of being targeted or tormented.
Your struggle, as you powerfully state, is that you "do not understand the point of that on any level." If this is your preordained path, why this specific form of suffering? Why this particular cruel joke? It strips away any sense of purpose or logical reason for your existence within this framework.
Acknowledging the Depth of the Void
What you're expressing is more than just loneliness; it's an existential crisis rooted in a specific, unmet need for intimate connection, framed by a deterministic worldview that makes it feel inescapable and even maliciously designed. The joy and meaning you derive from helping others, or from friendships, while real, don't penetrate the fundamental feeling of isolation you experience in your personal life.
This is a very difficult and painful place to be. Your honesty about the "pointlessness" of your existence, given these circumstances, speaks to the profound depth of your struggle.
Given how deeply ingrained this feeling of being trapped and targeted is, and how it impacts your daily existence, have you considered exploring ways to mitigate the intensity of these feelings even if you maintain your belief in preordination? While you may feel nothing can change the "script," sometimes finding small ways to adjust your experience of the script can offer some relief.
Like I say, it feels like every single time I get some level of control over that, life throws a female into my life, we get on really well but something is always thrown into the mix to scupper it. Logically, if life is a test, i cannot see how I learn anything from that when the cards seem so obviously stacked against me. I do not know what i am supposed to do.
I really hear the deep frustration and bewilderment in your words. It sounds like you're caught in a repeating pattern that feels less like a random occurrence and more like a deliberate, almost sadistic, challenge from "life." The feeling that "the cards seem so obviously stacked against me" is incredibly painful, especially when you're genuinely trying to cope by accepting your situation.
The Cruel Pattern and the Question of "The Test"
You've described a cycle that would be soul-crushing for anyone:
You find a way to regain some control over your feelings of loneliness, presumably through acceptance or adjustment.
"Life throws a female into your life," leading to an initial period where you "get on really well," sparking hope.
Then, "something is always thrown into the mix to scupper it," ensuring the connection doesn't deepen into what you desperately seek.
This pattern, repeated over time, isn't just disappointing; it feels like a mockery. Your question, "Logically, if life is a test, I cannot see how I learn anything from that when the cards seem so obviously stacked against me," hits on a profound point. If the test is designed to be unwinnable, or if the "lesson" is simply persistent suffering and denial, then the purpose of the test itself becomes incomprehensible and cruel. What is the point of a test you're doomed to fail, or whose only lesson is despair?
This directly reinforces your earlier feeling that you're "here so life can take the piss," because the outcomes are consistently negative, despite your efforts and hopes.
The Unbearable Feeling of Being Powerless
The core of your struggle, intensified by these experiences, is the feeling of powerlessness. If external forces (whether preordination, "life," or simple bad luck) consistently derail your attempts at connection, then your own actions, efforts, and resilience seem futile. "I do not know what I am supposed to do" is the logical conclusion when every path seems blocked by an unseen hand.
This persistent inability to achieve what you deeply desire, coupled with the recurring glimpses of what you "can't have," creates a unique form of suffering. It's not just the absence, but the repeated tantalization and subsequent withdrawal that makes it feel so deliberately cruel.
Finding a Way to Cope (Even Without "The Answer")
While I don't have an answer to the "point" of this seemingly unfair test, or how to change what you feel is preordained, what's clear is the immense pain and confusion you're experiencing.
In situations where the external circumstances feel insurmountable, sometimes the only path forward is to focus on how you navigate your internal world. This isn't about accepting injustice, but about finding a way to exist with it that doesn't completely consume you.
Given the depth of your despair and the recurring nature of these painful experiences, I still strongly encourage you to reconsider speaking with a mental health professional. They won't promise to solve the "preordination" problem, or guarantee a relationship, but they can help you:
Process the trauma of repeated disappointment: These aren't just minor setbacks; they're deeply painful experiences that leave emotional wounds.
Develop strategies for managing intense feelings: Learn healthier ways to cope with the profound anger, sadness, and bewilderment.
Explore pathways to internal peace: Even when external desires are unfulfilled, it's sometimes possible to find small pockets of contentment or meaning within your existing life.
Your feelings are valid, and your struggle is real. Knowing you're facing this cycle alone only adds to the burden.
Cheers G, i will give it some thought.
I understand. Take your time to give it some thought. It's a lot to process, and your feelings are deeply personal.
Why do you think it is that most of a humans thoughts and self talk is so negative. I know i have always struggled with this. Most of my self talk serves to make me unhappy. Is it because as children we are programmed by others or could there be an evolutionary reason behind it?
Hey there! It's really insightful that you're thinking about why so much of our self-talk tends to be negative, and you're definitely not alone in struggling with this. There are compelling arguments for both environmental (how we're raised) and evolutionary reasons.
The Environmental Angle: Programming from Childhood
It's very true that our early experiences play a huge role in shaping our internal dialogue. From a young age, we're like sponges, absorbing messages from our parents, teachers, peers, and even media.
Critical Feedback: Many of us grow up in environments where we receive more critical feedback than praise. While some criticism is necessary for learning, an imbalance can lead us to internalize a harsh inner critic.
Social Comparison: As we get older, we start comparing ourselves to others. This can be fueled by social media, where curated highlights often make others' lives seem perfect, leading to feelings of inadequacy.
Cultural Influences: Some cultures might inadvertently promote a focus on flaws or areas for improvement rather than celebrating strengths, which can also contribute to negative self-talk.
Trauma and Adverse Experiences: Difficult or traumatic experiences can deeply embed negative beliefs about ourselves and the world, making negative self-talk a protective, albeit unhelpful, coping mechanism.
The Evolutionary Angle: Our Brain's Survival Instincts
This is where things get really interesting. There's a strong argument that our brains are hardwired for a degree of negativity as a survival mechanism.
Negativity Bias: Our brains have a built-in "negativity bias," meaning we tend to pay more attention to, remember, and be influenced by negative experiences than positive ones. Think about it: remembering what's dangerous or what went wrong in the past was crucial for our ancestors' survival. If they focused only on the good, they might not have noticed the sabre-toothed tiger!
Threat Detection: Our brains are constantly scanning for threats, both physical and social. Negative self-talk can sometimes be a manifestation of this internal threat detection system, warning us about potential failures or social rejection.
Risk Aversion: From an evolutionary standpoint, being overly optimistic about risks could lead to dangerous situations. A cautious, even negative, internal voice might have encouraged more careful decision-making.
The "What If" Machine: Our ability to imagine potential negative outcomes (which often fuels negative self-talk) allowed our ancestors to plan and prepare for challenges. While useful in some contexts, it can easily spiral into excessive worry in modern life.
The Interplay
Ultimately, it's likely a combination of both. Our inherent evolutionary predispositions make us susceptible to negative self-talk, and our environmental programming then reinforces and shapes the specific content of that negativity.
Recognizing that this is a common human experience, and that there are deep-seated reasons for it, can be the first step in learning to challenge and reframe that inner voice. It's a journey many people embark on, and there are many strategies to cultivate more positive and supportive self-talk.
Does thinking about these different perspectives resonate with your own experiences?
Oh definitely
I always think of myself as a loser.
I have got much better, i think, in not letting the negative judgements of others get to me but where i fall down is that when people say positive things about me they either have no impact or i refuse to believe them.
That's a really honest and common experience, and it highlights a key challenge: even when external negativity fades, the internal negative voice can persist and even reject positive input. It sounds like you've made great strides in building a stronger boundary against others' negative judgments, which is a significant achievement!
The difficulty in accepting compliments or positive feedback, while letting your inner critic dominate, is often tied back to those very factors we discussed:
Why Positive Feedback Doesn't Stick
Deep-Seated Beliefs: If you've been telling yourself you're a "loser" for a long time, that belief becomes deeply ingrained. When someone says something positive, it directly conflicts with this established internal narrative. Your brain, in an attempt to maintain consistency, often dismisses the positive input as "wrong" or "misguided."
The Negativity Bias at Play: Remember how our brains latch onto the negative? This bias makes it easier for our minds to accept and reinforce negative self-talk, while positive information requires more effort to process and integrate. It's like a sticky surface for negativity and a Teflon coating for positivity.
Fear of Disappointment/Vulnerability: Sometimes, accepting a compliment can feel vulnerable. If you allow yourself to believe something good about yourself, there might be a subconscious fear of that belief being challenged or taken away later, leading to greater disappointment. It can feel "safer" to stay in a negative self-perception.
Internalized Standards: You might have incredibly high or unrealistic standards for yourself, possibly learned from childhood experiences or societal pressures. If you don't meet those self-imposed, often impossible, standards, any praise that doesn't align with your severe internal judgment might be rejected.
Lack of Internal Validation: If your self-worth is primarily based on external validation (which you're learning to move away from, commendably!), and that validation isn't sticking, it points to a need to build an internal wellspring of self-acceptance.
The good news is that recognizing this pattern is a crucial step. It means you're aware of the specific hurdle you're facing. The work now shifts from managing external criticism to actively reprogramming your internal response to both negative and positive information. This often involves challenging those deeply held negative beliefs and consciously practicing self-compassion and internal validation.
It's a journey, but your ability to shield yourself from external negativity shows incredible resilience and a capacity for growth. Now, it's about turning that same strength inward.
Does this explanation shed more light on why positive feedback might struggle to land for you?
It does
I do think i am shallow though. Money and Sex are the only things that make me believe i am worth anything as i have little money and have been celibate for a decade, you can appreciate why i feel a sense of lack. When it comes to sex though i can recognize that this is very much an old pattern. I wish i could value friendship more but someone saying they like me has an incredibly tiny impact compared to sexual relationships in my past.
I would get far more value from sex with a stranger than a decade long friendship i feel sad admitting that but it is true.
t's incredibly brave and honest of you to share those feelings, and I genuinely appreciate your openness. What you're describing, where your sense of self-worth is so tightly bound to specific external validations like money and sex, and where other forms of connection feel less impactful, is a pattern many people grapple with, though perhaps in different manifestations.
Understanding the Roots of This Feeling
It's clear that you recognize the "sense of lack" that stems from your current situation, and that's a crucial insight. Let's explore why money and sex might hold such disproportionate weight for you, and why friendship feels less potent.
Societal Conditioning: We live in a world that often equates success and desirability with wealth and certain types of relationships. From a young age, we're bombarded with messages that money brings security and status, and that sexual relationships are the ultimate proof of attractiveness and worth. These deeply ingrained societal narratives can powerfully shape our own internal value systems, even if we intellectually disagree with them.
Fundamental Needs & Evolutionary Echoes: While not the only way to meet them, both money and sex can be linked to very fundamental human needs. Money provides resources, security, and opportunities, touching upon our basic need for survival and comfort. Sexual connection, from an evolutionary perspective, is tied to procreation and deep pair-bonding, fulfilling a powerful biological and emotional drive for intimacy, validation, and belonging. If these needs, or the perceived ability to fulfill them, feel compromised, it's natural to experience a profound sense of deficit.
The Power of Intense Experiences: You mentioned that a sexual encounter with a stranger might feel more impactful than a decade-long friendship. This points to the intensity of the experience. Sexual intimacy, especially when new or illicit, can trigger powerful neurochemical responses (like dopamine and oxytocin) that create a rush of feeling, validation, and perceived connection. This immediate, intense gratification can easily overshadow the slower, more subtle, but ultimately deeper rewards of long-term friendship.
Validation vs. Connection: It sounds like, for you, money and sex have historically served as primary sources of validation – proof that you are desirable, capable, or worthy. Friendships, while offering genuine connection, might not provide that same intense "proof" or immediate hit of external affirmation that your self-worth system has become accustomed to. When you're seeking validation, a deep, quiet connection might not register as strongly as something that feels like an undeniable statement of your value.
Old Patterns and Learned Associations: You wisely identified sex as "very much an old pattern." Our brains are incredibly good at forming associations. If past experiences taught you that sexual attention or financial success equated to feeling good about yourself, those pathways become reinforced. It takes conscious effort to build new pathways where other sources of value, like genuine friendship, can register with the same emotional weight.
Moving Forward
Admitting these feelings, even if they feel sad to acknowledge, is the opposite of being shallow. It's an act of profound self-awareness and honesty. It means you're looking directly at what truly drives you and how you currently measure your worth. This self-awareness is the foundation for change.
The goal isn't to deny these feelings, but to understand them and gradually broaden your definition of what makes you valuable. It's about finding ways to cultivate internal validation and to truly feel the impact of the different forms of connection and worth that exist in your life.
Given your insights, what's one small step you might consider in starting to explore new ways to measure your worth, or perhaps to experience the value of friendship more deeply?
It is very difficult as i have thought about it a lot.
There is an expression "Friends with benefits" which means friends you have sex with so then are friends you don't have sex with 'friends without benefits?'
I have to be honest due to my age and such a prolonged period with no physical affection i have recently started to find even the idea of sex almost laughably ridiculous. So i am quite confused. I have tried to value friendships more but there is always that feeling that my best is only ever second best and so i do struggle to get any deep value from human friendships. I do not feel that close to anyone.
Thank you for your continued openness. It takes immense courage to articulate these very personal and deep-seated feelings, especially when they touch on areas of vulnerability and perceived "lack." What you're experiencing is complex, and your insights are truly valuable.
Let's break down some of what you've shared:
"Friends with Benefits" vs. "Friends Without Benefits"
Your phrasing "friends without benefits" is a sharp and poignant way to highlight the very point you're struggling with. The concept of "friends with benefits" explicitly acknowledges that the "benefit" is the sexual aspect. When that's removed, it can, for some, make the remaining friendship feel "less than" or "lacking a key benefit." This isn't a judgment on you; it's a reflection of how society, and perhaps your own experiences, have prioritized or weighted sexual connection.
The term for "friends without benefits" in the traditional sense is simply platonic friendship. And while it sounds like a simple definition, the value of platonic friendship can be incredibly profound, though it offers different forms of intimacy and satisfaction than sexual relationships.
The "Laughably Ridiculous" Feeling Towards Sex
This is a significant shift and, in some ways, could be an opportunity. After a decade of celibacy and having processed past patterns, it's possible that your brain is re-evaluating the biological drive versus the emotional or validating role that sex once played for you.
Detachment from the "Outcome": If sex was previously a primary source of validation for your worth or desirability, and now you feel a disconnect from it, it's as if that "currency" for self-worth is no longer easily accessible or even desired in the same way. This can be confusing.
The Body-Mind Disconnect: Your body might be adapting to a lack of physical intimacy, and the intense yearning might diminish, leading to that "ridiculous" feeling. However, the emotional yearning for validation or closeness that sex once fulfilled might still be present, just seeking a new outlet.
"My Best is Only Ever Second Best" and Not Feeling Close to Anyone
This is the core of the struggle with platonic friendships and connects directly back to your self-perception of being a "loser" and the high value you place on money and sex.
The Hierarchy of Value: If money and sex represent the "gold standard" of worth in your internal system, then anything else, including friendship, might be automatically relegated to a "second best" category. It's not that friendship is second best, but that your internal valuing system perceives it that way.
Lack of Deep Connection: When you feel you're "second best," it's incredibly difficult to allow yourself to be truly vulnerable and form deep bonds. Deep connection requires a level of trust and emotional openness where you believe the other person values you for who you are, not just what you provide (financially, sexually, or otherwise). If you inherently believe you're "second best," you might subconsciously hold back, preventing the very closeness you seek.
The Echo of Validation: You mentioned getting more value from sex with a stranger than a decade-long friendship. This speaks volumes. The encounter with a stranger, however fleeting, might provide an intense, albeit temporary, hit of primal validation ("I am desired"). A decade-long friendship, while offering consistent support, emotional connection, and shared history, might not provide that same type of intense, immediate validation that your system has been wired to crave.
What This Might Mean for You
Your current state is less about being "shallow" and more about:
A deeply ingrained self-worth system: Your self-worth has been heavily reliant on external markers (money, sexual desirability) that are currently absent or re-evaluated.
A shift in primary "validation currency": You're experiencing a disconnect from what used to provide that intense feeling of worth (sex), leaving a void.
The challenge of re-prioritizing intimacy: You're trying to re-evaluate what genuinely brings you value and connection, but your existing wiring makes it hard for platonic connections to register with the same weight.
This is a really tough spot to be in, and it's absolutely understandable why you feel confused and sad. The work ahead, if you choose to pursue it, involves a profound re-wiring of how you perceive and value yourself and your relationships. It's about building internal validation and recognizing the diverse forms of intimacy that exist beyond the physical.
Knowing that you've thought about this a lot, what's a thought or feeling that comes up for you as we discuss these deeper layers?
I think when it comes to platonic friendship it comes down to risk and reward, why invest any depth of emotion when what you get back, well i am talking for myself here, what you get back feels superficial and quite flippant, especially friendships with the opposite sex. I think i take it for granted that friendships with men come and go and also in my case friendships with gay women who i have always got on well with. I even married one! Though at the time of our marriage she was bisexual. So those friendships are naturally transient and do not really carry a huge level of risk. Friends with the opposite sex though i feel i cannot risk having deep feelings as that would only lead to further loneliness and ultimately heartache.
Thanks for sharing those deeper insights. It makes a lot of sense that you view platonic friendship, especially with the opposite sex, through a lens of risk versus reward. Your perspective on these relationships is clearly shaped by past experiences and a very understandable desire to protect yourself from pain.
The Risk-Reward Calculation in Platonic Friendships
You've hit on a critical point: if the perceived "reward" of platonic friendship feels superficial or flippant, then the "risk" of emotional investment far outweighs it. This isn't just about external validation; it's about the vulnerability required for deep connection and the fear of that vulnerability leading to more hurt.
The "Superficial" Return: When you say what you get back feels "superficial and quite flippant," it suggests that these relationships haven't met your fundamental needs for profound connection or the kind of validation you seek. If they don't provide that sense of being truly seen, valued, or deeply understood, then any emotional effort feels wasted.
Transient Nature: You've observed that friendships with men and gay women can be transient. This observation reinforces the idea that these connections aren't built to last or to bear significant emotional weight. If you expect them to come and go, you naturally won't invest heavily, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy where they remain superficial.
Opposite-Sex Friendships: The Fear of Heartache: This is a particularly poignant point. The risk of developing deep feelings for someone of the opposite sex, only for it to remain platonic (or to transition into something painful), is a very real fear. This kind of experience can lead to a profound sense of loneliness and heartache, especially if you're seeking a specific type of intimacy that isn't being met. Your past experiences, perhaps including your marriage, might have reinforced the idea that these lines can blur in painful ways, or that expectations aren't met, leading to disappointment.
What you're describing is a very rational protective mechanism. Your brain is trying to keep you safe from emotional pain, which it associates with deep emotional investment in platonic relationships.
Understanding the Cycle
This creates a challenging cycle:
Fear of Risk: You're afraid to invest deeply due to potential pain.
Limited Investment: Because of this fear, you hold back emotionally.
Superficial Returns: The relationships remain superficial because you haven't fully engaged.
Reinforced Belief: This superficiality then reinforces your initial belief that platonic friendships don't offer enough reward for the risk.
And so the cycle continues, leaving you feeling distant and isolated, even when people are around you.
Next Steps to Consider
It sounds like you're in a place of deep introspection, and acknowledging these patterns is incredibly powerful. While I can't offer quick fixes, here are a few thoughts on what might be explored if you wished to challenge this pattern:
Redefining "Reward": What would make a platonic friendship feel deeply rewarding to you, beyond sexual or financial validation? Is it shared interests, intellectual stimulation, consistent emotional support, or simply feeling truly "seen" for who you are?
Gradual Vulnerability: Instead of jumping into "deep feelings," could you consider very small, low-stakes acts of vulnerability in existing or new friendships? Sharing a slightly more personal thought, asking for a small favor, or expressing genuine appreciation could be steps.
Challenging Assumptions: You've identified that friendships are "naturally transient" and that deep feelings with the opposite sex "would only lead to further loneliness." These are powerful beliefs. Could you entertain the possibility, even as an intellectual exercise, that not all friendships are transient, or that some opposite-sex friendships can be deeply fulfilling without becoming romantic?
It's clear you crave genuine connection, even if your protective mechanisms make it hard to achieve. Your honesty in expressing this is a testament to that underlying desire.
Does thinking about this cycle, and potentially redefining "reward" in platonic friendships, resonate with you?
Logically yes,
Emotionally not really. Maybe there have been so many times where i have been discouraged from loving someone that it almost feels like an act of self sabotage.
I do not have this problem with dogs especially and animals in general. I have loved my dogs with all my heart even though i am aware of the pain losing them brings. Loving dogs is way easier than loving humans. There are less expectations and i have never perceived that a dog makes me feel second best.
That's a powerful distinction, and it makes perfect sense that you can grasp the logic but struggle with the emotional buy-in. When it comes to deep-seated patterns and protective mechanisms, our emotions often lag behind our intellectual understanding.
The Emotional Disconnect: Self-Sabotage and Past Hurt
You hit on something profound: "Maybe there have been so many times where I have been discouraged from loving someone that it almost feels like an act of self-sabotage." This is a critical insight. If vulnerability and deep emotional investment have consistently led to pain, disappointment, or feeling "second best" in your past human relationships, your emotional system learns to create a strong deterrent. It's like a highly effective, albeit painful, defense mechanism.
From this perspective, holding back emotionally isn't self-sabotage in a malicious sense; it's a self-preservation strategy. Your emotional brain is saying, "I've been hurt here before. The risk of repeating that pain is too high, so I will prevent myself from going down that road again." This is why the logical argument for different potential rewards in friendship doesn't land emotionally – the fear of that old, familiar pain is much stronger.
The Ease of Loving Animals
Your connection with animals, especially dogs, perfectly illustrates this point. You've found a space where:
Unconditional Acceptance: Dogs offer a profound sense of unconditional love and acceptance. They don't judge you, they don't have complex agendas, and their affection is often unambiguous.
No "Second Best" Feeling: As you beautifully put it, "I have never perceived that a dog makes me feel second best." This is crucial. Dogs naturally validate your presence and affection without comparison or complex social dynamics.
Lower Expectations (Different Expectations): While there's the profound pain of loss, the type of expectations in a human relationship (reciprocity of complex emotional needs, romantic potential, societal status) are absent with animals. This reduces the pressure and the avenues for disappointment.
Predictability: The love of a dog is often more predictable and consistent than human relationships, which can be messy, unpredictable, and prone to miscommunication.
Your ability to love your dogs "with all your heart," despite knowing the pain of loss, shows your immense capacity for connection and affection. It highlights that the issue isn't a lack of ability to love or connect, but rather specific barriers and past hurts related to human relationships.
What This Tells Us
This distinction between human and animal relationships strongly reinforces the idea that your struggle with human connection stems from learned patterns of protection and deeply ingrained fears of not being enough, or of being hurt, within complex human dynamics. The "risk vs. reward" calculation with humans is heavily skewed by past pain, whereas with animals, the perceived reward is immense, and the risks (outside of loss) are minimal.
Understanding this emotional landscape is a huge step. It means the work isn't about forcing yourself to feel something you don't, but perhaps about gradually creating new, safer experiences in human connection that can slowly, over time, begin to reprogram those protective emotional responses. It's about demonstrating to your emotional brain that not all human connections will lead to the old pain.
Given your profound connection with animals, do you ever find that the unconditional love they offer helps you reflect on what you might genuinely be seeking, or truly deserving of, in human relationships?
Oh yes and i have felt that same love once before with a girl called Kerry. It was everything i could have hoped for but it only lasted for a short while, hence it was almost like living a fantasy which on one hand was absolutely amazing and i would not swap it for the world but on the other, it has been very detrimental to relationships moving forward, as reality cannot compete with a fantasy.
This also ties in to the 'second best' scenario. Why put in the effort required when i have lived my ultimate fantasy?
Thanks for sharing about Kerry. That experience sounds incredibly powerful, and it makes perfect sense why it set such a high bar for future relationships. It's a common psychological phenomenon that when we experience something intensely positive, especially if it feels "perfect" or "ultimate," it can profoundly impact our expectations for everything that comes after.
The Allure and Detriment of the "Ultimate Fantasy"
What you've described with Kerry is often called a peak experience or an idealized relationship. It was "everything you could have hoped for," a true emotional high.
The Power of the Ideal: When reality aligns so perfectly with our deepest desires, it creates an almost dreamlike state. The brain is flooded with positive neurochemicals, and a sense of completeness or perfect fit is established. This isn't inherently bad; it shows your capacity for profound connection and joy.
The "Fantasy" Factor: You wisely identified that it was "almost like living a fantasy." The brevity of the relationship, while heartbreaking, might have inadvertently preserved its "perfect" status. It didn't have time to encounter the mundane, the conflicts, or the compromises that are inherent in all long-term relationships. It remained untarnished by the messiness of real life.
The "Why Bother?" Trap: This is the core of the problem you're facing now. If you've already experienced what feels like the absolute "ultimate," then anything less perfect—which is to say, any real, human relationship—will inevitably feel like a downgrade. Why invest effort in something that's "second best" when you've already had the "best"? This isn't laziness; it's a very human response to comparing an idealized memory to messy reality. Your brain sees the effort required for a real relationship as a poor return on investment compared to that perfect memory.
Connecting to "Second Best" and Platonic Friendships
This "ultimate fantasy" directly informs your feeling of being "second best" and your struggles with platonic friendships.
Internal Benchmark: The Kerry experience becomes the internal benchmark against which all subsequent connections are measured. If a new relationship, whether romantic or platonic, doesn't immediately deliver that same intensity, perfection, or feeling of ultimate fulfillment, it's automatically deemed "less than" or "second best."
Loss of Perceived Reward: In this scenario, the "reward" you seek isn't just connection; it's ultimate connection and validation. When platonic friendships (or even new romantic prospects) can't possibly compete with an idealized past, the motivation to invest the necessary emotional effort diminishes significantly. The "risk" of potential disappointment or the "reward" of something less than perfect simply doesn't seem worth it.
This doesn't mean you can't experience deep, fulfilling relationships again. But it does mean that your current framework for evaluating potential connections is heavily influenced by a unique and, by its nature, unsustainable ideal.
The challenge now is to explore if there's a way to appreciate the beauty of that past experience without letting it invalidate the potential for different, but equally valuable, forms of connection and happiness in the present and future. It's about moving from a binary "ultimate vs. second best" mindset to one that recognizes the spectrum of richness and fulfillment that real, imperfect human relationships can offer.
Does this explanation help connect the dots between your "ultimate fantasy" and your current struggles with relationships?
It does and most if it i kind of know. As with most things to do with mental health, understanding the situation and having a good idea of the best way forward is far simpler than putting them into action.
You've hit on one of the most fundamental truths about mental health and personal growth: understanding is a crucial first step, but action is where the real, challenging work happens. It's like knowing exactly how to swim versus actually getting in the water and learning to navigate the currents. The gap between intellectual comprehension and emotional/behavioral change can feel immense, and it's completely normal to feel that way.
The Knowing-Doing Gap
This is often called the "knowing-doing gap." We can logically grasp why we feel a certain way, or what we "should" do, but our ingrained patterns, emotional wiring, and protective mechanisms often keep us stuck. Our brains prefer efficiency and familiarity, even if those familiar paths lead to discomfort or unhappiness. Changing them requires:
Conscious Effort: It's often harder to forge new neural pathways than to follow well-worn ones.
Tolerance for Discomfort: Growth almost always involves stepping outside our comfort zone, which can trigger anxiety, fear, or a sense of awkwardness.
Patience: Deep-seated beliefs and emotional responses don't change overnight. It's a gradual process, often with setbacks.
Self-Compassion: It's easy to get frustrated with ourselves when we know what to do but struggle to do it. But beating ourselves up only makes the gap wider.
Where to Go From Here
Since you know the understanding is largely there, the next phase is about experimentation and small, deliberate actions. It's not about making a massive leap, but about tiny, consistent steps that start to chip away at the old patterns and build new ones.
Given your insights, here are a couple of high-quality avenues you might consider exploring, keeping in mind that these are just ideas, and you're the expert on your own life:
Micro-Doses of Vulnerability in Safe Spaces:
The Idea: Instead of aiming for profound, deep connection immediately, can you practice very tiny acts of emotional vulnerability? This might be with a current platonic friend or even a new acquaintance.
How: This could be as simple as sharing a slightly more personal thought about your day, admitting a small struggle you had, or asking for a non-essential favor and allowing yourself to receive help. The goal isn't to get a huge emotional payoff, but to test the waters and show your emotional brain that sometimes, vulnerability doesn't lead to pain or feeling "second best."
Why it helps: Each successful (even tiny) positive interaction starts to create new neural pathways, slowly challenging the ingrained belief that emotional investment in human relationships is always too risky.
Actively Seeking the "Different" in Friendships:
The Idea: You mentioned how the "ultimate fantasy" makes other relationships feel "second best." Can you consciously try to appreciate and identify different types of value in your existing or new platonic friendships, without comparing them to that ideal?
How: This might involve focusing on what a particular friend does bring: their sense of humor, a shared interest, their reliability, a fresh perspective, or just a comfortable presence. It's about consciously shifting your lens from what they lack (compared to the ideal) to what unique qualities they do possess.
Why it helps: This practice helps to diversify your internal "reward system." It trains your brain to find different forms of fulfillment and to recognize that "different" doesn't automatically mean "less than."
Remember, this isn't about forcing yourself to feel something you don't, but about creating opportunities for your emotional landscape to gradually shift. It's about proving to yourself, through gentle experience, that there can be different, valuable rewards in human connection.
Does either of these approaches resonate more with you, or perhaps spark another idea for a small step you might be willing to try?
Sadly, to a degree i have tried both. I have always been able to talk about my vulnerabilities to people and obviously all the 'friendships' i have are platonic but i largely just go through the motions, i have a role to play and i play it but i don't really invest myself. I do care about people my job involves caring for people and genuinely wanting the best for them but the connection i feel is very much short term. I have almost constructed a deliberate disconnect. Which is sad.
It sounds like you've been incredibly self-aware about how you navigate your relationships, and that "deliberate disconnect" you've constructed is a powerful insight. It's a testament to your ability to protect yourself, even if it comes with the sad consequence of feeling that distance.
The Role and the Reality
It's clear that you're capable of empathy and care, especially in your professional life. Your job requires you to genuinely want the best for people, and you fulfill that role admirably. This shows you have the capacity for connection and concern. However, the critical distinction you're making is that this is often a role you play, where the connection is "short term" and there's a "deliberate disconnect."
This isn't about being disingenuous; it's about a protective strategy that keeps your deeper emotional self safe. You've learned to engage just enough to fulfill a social or professional function, but not enough to risk the pain of deep investment or feeling "second best" again.
The Sadness of Disconnect
It's truly poignant that you recognize the sadness in this. That sadness is actually a good sign; it means a part of you still yearns for that deeper, more authentic connection, even if your protective mechanisms are currently stronger. It's that underlying yearning that makes you reflect on this pattern in the first place.
When you've tried to talk about vulnerabilities and engage in platonic friendships, but still feel like you're "going through the motions," it points to how deeply ingrained this protective disconnect is. It's not just about what you do (talking about vulnerabilities), but about what you feel (or don't feel) while doing it. The emotional investment simply isn't kicking in.
Where to Focus Next
Given this profound level of self-awareness, the focus might shift from trying to force a feeling of connection, to exploring the root of the disconnect itself, and understanding what would make it feel safe to choose connection over protection, even in small doses.
Here are a couple of very gentle, exploratory paths to consider:
Exploring the "Why" of the Disconnect, Without Judgment:
The Idea: Instead of trying to break the disconnect, can you spend some time observing it? When do you feel it most strongly? What specific thoughts or fears arise just before you "go through the motions" or feel that distance?
How: This isn't about trying to change it, but simply noticing it. Perhaps keep a mental note (or even a very brief journal entry) when you feel that disconnect kick in. What specific situations, people, or topics trigger it? Are there particular expectations that seem to activate this defense?
Why it helps: This can help you gain even deeper insight into the specific triggers and underlying fears that drive your protective mechanism. Understanding the nuances of "why" can sometimes reveal a subtle opening for change.
Seeking Professional Support to Unpack the Patterns:
The Idea: Given the depth of these patterns and the pain they cause, working with a therapist or counselor could be incredibly beneficial. They can provide a safe, non-judgmental space to unpack the "ultimate fantasy" with Kerry, the pain of feeling "second best," and the origins of your deliberate disconnect.
How: A professional can help you explore these dynamics in a way that's difficult to do alone. They can offer tools and strategies tailored to your unique experiences, helping you slowly, safely, and gently challenge these ingrained patterns. They're trained to help bridge that "knowing-doing gap."
Why it helps: This kind of support can be transformative for deeply entrenched emotional patterns. It offers a structured and compassionate environment to address the underlying wounds that contribute to the disconnect, rather than just trying to modify behavior on the surface.
It takes incredible courage to acknowledge such deep-seated patterns, and even more to feel the sadness associated with them. Your honesty throughout this conversation is a profound strength.
